great job niles west! especially great job to alex and eric for organizing such a wonderful event. grats everyone!

Great coverage ! It is AMAZING that the youth and these kids are standing against the anti-union bill! Unions are a foundation of this great country, they were created for a reason. Thank you for your support, lets hope more take action like these great kids and send a message to Illinois THAT WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!

Yes! I'm so happy that our youth care about this and not brittney spears. And what a smart move to go back to class, these students really care. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!

Hey! im in the vid for literally for 3 seconds lmao!!!!!!!

Principal Osburn should be ashamed of himself. An educator who is a knee jerk bureaucratic.
What better a learning experience and excercise in civics to demonstrate the Wisconsin fiasco!
Yet receiving a detention for protesting more than the 40 minute limit, thus punishing students taking the initiative in participatory democracy is ludicrous and unenlightened retrogressive education.

For Osburn to claim he is only following the Board's dictate to make the school better demonstrates he is the one who should be punished by the Board. For his action of meting out detentions for students exercising a right of protest is unenlightened education at its worst.
What the students did by carrying out their rights of civic participation represented a far more significant learning opportunity than anything they could have learned in the last period of class. His actions demonstrates one of the things wrong with our schools!!!!!!

Seymour J. Schwartz
Professor Emeritus of Political Science

seyschwartz@comcast.net

To MIB

Doing what is best for students while mollyfing Boards who can be clueless about quality education is a tightrope a school administrator walks. I agree with you. But, and this is a big but, the principle knew what he was getting into when he accepted his position. i have little sympathy.

I don't know Principle Osburn at all other then from this article. The two questions one should be asking are 1: Did he weigh the strength of his argument supporting the students staying out of class for two periods with his ability to persuade his Board as to the educational merits of letting students protest for 2 periods instead of one? and 2: How often at other times did he choose the politically safer course of action over the best interests of students?

One of the things schools need are principals with strong principles, gutsy, and courageous who do more often what is in the best interests of students instead of the misplaced needs of the powers to be.

To Tony Kovacs: taxpayers funding pensions that are inadequately paid for by public employees, you write. How about we as consumers paying inflated prices for goods to support multi-million dollar bonuses of corporate CEOs. And how about the typical voter who rewards with their vote politicians who don't raise adequate amounts of taxes to fully fund employee pensions that THEY agreed to through the collective bargaining process?

To Skokie Parent: I am running out of characters--will write a seperate comment.

"It would make them angry and only reinforce their understanding that schools are unnecessarily unjust to students far too often"

Unjust by punishing them for skipping classes? You're a nut job. If he didn't punish them, there would be a weekly walkout. If they were truly doing this for the right reason, they would have done it after school. It's all crap. Teacher unions need to go. There are too many teachers around here making 100K+ that are below par. We have good teachers and we have bad ones. Unions protect the bad ones. Each teacher should have to stand on their own record.

It strikes me as strange that a professor--emeritus or no--or anyone else who professes to comment on the merits of teachers and/or teacher unions and/or education in general--should write comments rife with grammatical and spelling errors...

There are certain parts of Europe and Asia where teachers are respected like doctors. Please, think about it, teachers play a HUGE role in developing your child. Good teachers and school districts are the reason why homes in certain areas are more expensive then others. And this isn't opinion, but fact, D219 has two of the best schools in the nation.

Yes, Illinois has a deficit, but eliminating unions isn't the answer. There are a variety of methods to raise revenue in Illinois. Also, unions are a founding part of this great country. Eliminating unions is more about the rich getting richer, plain and simple.

Perhaps before leaving the classroom to protest, these students should learn to spell: "standerdized"??? Really?

Hey Eric and Alex just by chance...did either of you two read Wisconsin Repair Budget bill and how it changes collective bargaining.?...think about that while you are doing your detention. Rather than get on the party bandwagon....educate yourselves on the details first.

Neither one of you have a clue as to what is going on.

Skokie mike
Your post is spot on. In 1970 as a 25 year old very young visiting professor in europe still wet in the pants I got a kick out of people deferring to mr as Herr professor.
unfortunately teachers in this country and unions too have been made scapegoats for much of tray's problems.
That is not to say that there have not been excesses and abuse by unios because there have been. But they have done far more good than not.

"Professor" Schwartz:
It is never okay to misspell words in ANY type of communication--and to call Principal Osburn "Priciple" Osburn--come on.....
And, "Herr Professor," there is only one correct grammar.
Period.

Nobody has said 'get rid of a union', WI or otherwise. All they have done is said they can bargain only for wages. When you go to a 'real' job not funded by OPM, namely tax payers, in the real world - you negotiate your salary and select a few of the fringe benefits you can get. Nothing in this world is free - look that up and give us the source OK nutty professor? And in the majority of the cases you will pay a significant part of those benefits in copay, deductable, paycheck deduction. The 'real world' is not enthralled anymore with making Mr or Mrs Teacher upper middle course so the student scores continue spiraling downward. And then letting the Teachers retire at 55 like millionaires. Proffy, complain the taxpayers have caught up with the public employees shameful stealing of hard earned money.

GO KIDS GO!

We will see when these students get out in the real world and find out that half of their paychecks go to pay for unsustainable teachers pensions? If they can find a job that is.

Matt R: Matt, you are entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to my facts :-). The difference between the two is that opinions are judgements based on some experience or observation. Facts are verifiable and if one's facts are questioned, I should be able to prevent evidence to support them.

I have professionlly education and schools at all level throughout my career and have published about the School Reform Movement. From your remarks, you obviously don't know much about schools in this country. Education and schools are one of the most politicized institutions in this country. It is one of the few entities where many if not most of its boards and administrators know very little about education and teaching.

Our cultural values maintain that education is one of the most important institutions in our nation. It is the ticket to get ahead in our country. It is the one place we parents entrust their most precious progeny, their children to care for them 6 to 8 hours a day for most of the year. By care, I mean their health, safety, and preparation for a future of well-being. Yet today, it is one of the most devalued of social institutions. The pay structure is geared to it still being considered a women's profession along with nursing and social work. Based on it importance to society, teachers ought to be paid more than doctors-neurosurgeons, attorneys, etc. People in these professions relied on teachers to get them there.

--To be continued--

Matt R: Part 3. Nevertheless, since you must have adults to supervise as well as to teach, schools have to hire and retain teachers. You have to be a moron to be fired. Don't blame unions for retention of bad teachers. Blame yourself and the rest of society for not supporting being taxed enough to pay for better qualified teachers.

As a parent, would you pay the most money you can afford to get the best physician to care for you sick child? If so, why would you not pay the most you can afford for entrusting your child and their safety and preparation for their future for the most talented teacher?

I don't buy the various arguments that we are taxed too much already, teachers are morons, government workers are an alien species and we ought to get rid of all of them, etc. etc. Billions of dollars are spent on such discretionary items like pet food, cosmetics, and the biggest, best, and newest electronic gadget to make the lack of affordability fly.

So it is a FACT, not my OPINION that people are not correct to put the main blame for poor teachers maily on the teachers and the unions. The truth is given by that great American Philosopher Pogo: I have met the enemy, and the enemy is me.

I'm really excited that this snowballed into such a monumentious event- but I'm sad to see such things being sad about Mr. Osburn. He is one of the finest administraitors I've known, and a really good human. He only cares about the students, and what so ever he may say he honestly means to only do good for the school.

It really puts a damper on this day's outrageously amazing success to see this arguement going on. The fact that there are more words spent argueing than there are in the whole article is a sad, sad sight.

Being one of the students helping fuel this train, right under the fearless Erik and Alex, I feel the need to stress this fact:
WE ALL ARE PUMPED FOR THIS DETENTION. Not only did we follow Thoreau's American way by disobeying in a civil manner, but we are accepting the risks and punishments we knew were coming all along.
As I serve my detention I will have a smile on my face and no feelings of anything close to anger towards Mr.Osburn.
-Emily Blankenheim

Still opinions. You obviously don't know the difference. As you like to advise people, I would advise you to look up the definition again. The whole way through school we used to always joke about English and Pol Sci majors. You are definitely fitting the mold. Unlike you, I'm not going to type a 2000 character response. You can keep your opinion and I'll keep mine.

The student protests aren't just solidarity with Wisconsin. Everyone is being attacked, except the super rich. And today's students will be paying the consequences the rest if their lives. Their children will also. I'm proud of the students in my school district. Join the protest march in Chicago today, noon, congress & Michigan.

Hmmm. . .lots of comments, lots of emotion-very few facts.

Do students know how much teachers and administrators make? 6 figures isn't all that uncommon for only working 8 months a year. Who else works only 8 months a year?

Do students know that teachers and administrators have gold-plated health and retirement benefits? Do students know that they are the ones who will be paying for teachers' gold-plated retirement benefits?

Do students know that there are over 14,000 teachers in Illinois who make more than $100 thousand in salary? Many teachers in Illinois make more than primary care physicians. Who works harder-teachers or primary care physicians?

Students have no idea what it is to hold a job. Once they get a job and start seeing how much the government takes out of their paychecks, they may have a different opinion.

According to IRS statistics, Illinois teachers with salaries in excess of $110 thousand are in the top 10 percent of wage-earners. Many teachers in Illinois are the "super rich".

Where did all of these facts come from? The American Thinker website. Students should check out the website-they may learn something that their teachers would never tell them. Shhh-keep it a secret.

Many people gave their lives to form unions. There is a great history behind their birth. It was always the most horrendous Tragedies that brought about labor reform. It is one of the greatest untold stories of American history, especially the attacks on unionizing, by the government, and the McCarthy era. It should be taught in schools. Great work Niles West High.

For Richard S.
I did not see any sources listed for your facts. I would suggest you go to your state's website for the Deparment of Education to confrim what I will address.
1. Teachers must take classes or approved seminars to keep their certifcation current. If they don't they can loose their license.
2. It is not unusual for a teacher to be responsible (directly) for 180+ students per day. That does not include all the students that the teachers are responsible for in the school (total population)
3. Teacher are responsible nor just for the eductional achievement of each child, but for each child's emotional, social and medical wel being.
4. With NCLB, teacher are now responsible for the achievement that students attain/do not attain for additional work that gets done away from school. (Name one business that is willing to take responsibility for a product's out-come when they only have control of the manufacturing environment for 1/4 of the process.
Please compare a teacher's salary with another profession's with the same responsiblities. Oh, I will be checking your fact sources
In case it did not come across clear enough, I find your comments shallow without any basis.

The following information is from the Family Taxpayer Foundation on the top 100 teachers/administrators salaries:

Russell, Lucille $413,000
Engler, Thomas $350,154
Dada, M Mohsin $341,747
Fleming, Larry $334,912

"Recent IRS statistics suggest that those who make over $110,000 a year are in the upper 10% of income earners . . .In Illinois, a whopping 14,048 public school teachers made over $100,000 a year in salary in 2010, a 13% increase from 2009. So , who are these working class heroes? Leading the pack is William Mitz a physical education teacher at Adlai E. Stevenson High School with a salary of $191,124 (the highest paid public school teacher in Illinois in 2010). There's Steven Heuerman who made $187,278 in 2010, who's a physical education teacher at Niles West High School. There's Paul Parpet , a physical education teacher at Addison Trail High School who made $184,449 in salary in 2010. David Sebald is a physical education teacher at West Leyden High School who made $177,263 in salary in 2010. Deerfield High School had two physical education teachers making over $170,000 a year in 2010: Carol Myers who made $170,981 in salary, and Gayle Luehr who made $170,012.

Through the "negotiating" tactics of unions, 6 of the 12 highest paid public school teachers, in Illinois, are physical education teachers. Should physical education teachers be paid the highest levels of compensation in public education?. . .Illinois Governor Pat Quinn would rather raise the Illinois state income tax by 67% than cut the compensation of these upper class workers. It's for the children. Got that?"

Source: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/03/lets_hear_it_for_the_working_c.html

"Teachers must take classes or approved seminars to keep their certifcation current. If they don't they can loose their license. "

OMG, teachers are required to meet the same continuing education requirements as doctors, lawyers, nurses, engineers, architects, building code officials, fire code officials and many other professions. How about that?

Teachers' compensation and the recent 67 percent increase state income tax, as well as the increase in the state corporate income tax, are all linked. The exodus from Illinois has already begun. A company in Crystal Lake has announced it's leaving for greener pastures, Wisconsin. That's 80 jobs lost with an average wage of $34.50 an hour ($5+ million in salaries annually). The company said that when it moves to Wisconsin, it plans to add another 25 workers.

Do levels of taxation matter? What drives the level of taxation? Government employee compensation is one driver of taxation. How will state and local government pay all of those 6 figure teacher salaries and retirement benefits when Illinois taxpayers are all leaving for greener pastures?

If there are no taxpayers left in Illinois, all of the retirement benefits promised to teachers will be just that, promises. A bankrupt state doesn't pay retirement benefits. The town of Prichard, Alabama promised its employees retirement benefits, but had to choose between keeping the street lights on or paying retirement benefits. Guess what happened? Politicians can make all the promises they want, but if there is no money to pay retirement benefits, there will be no retirement benefits paid.

Can Illinois taxpayers really afford to pay teachers 6 figure salaries? Are teachers killing the goose that laid golden eggs? Common sense tells you the answer to both of those questions.

Illinois Districts for for 2010:

Russell, Lucille $413,000
Engler, Thomas $350,154
Dada, M Mohsin $341,747
Fleming, Larry $334,912
Lamberson, Jonathan $318,324
Giannetti, Glen $307,471
Many, Thomas $299,600
Harper, John $297,605
May, Loren $292,157
Mical, Gary $288,564
Lane, Bruce $282,648
Rafferty, Edward $282,121
Carmine, Joyce $281,950
McTague, Frances $279,670
Mansfield, Edward $276,014
Barshinger, Jack $274,934
Buckner, J Kamala $274,592
Nebor, Jon $272,412
Schoffstall, Phillip $271,241
Hill, Gerald $271,142
Humphrey, Steven $270,635
Doebert, Sandra $270,197
Swanstrom, Paul $269,342
Fornero, George $269,335
Yonke, Linda $266,420
Robbins, Kathryn $265,724
Joy, Donna $262,431
Porto, Joseph $262,325
Kroeze, David $261,900
Schlomann, Donald $261,398
Vieth, Linda $259,892
Boyd, Alex $259,844
Rodgers, John $259,604

Mayor of Chicago in the same Chicago Tribune article:

“Our teachers work six hours a day. Six hours a day. What do you think of that? Thirty hours a week,” Daley said. “I’m not condemning all the teachers, but you know, there has to be a time and place for everybody to have to give to the less fortunate. … Unions have to understand, that you have a responsibility. It’s not just a paycheck.”

Teachers want to paid like "white-collar professonals". The white collar professionals I know all work more than 40 hours a week, some even 60 or 80 hours a week, and all white collar professionals work 52 weeks a year. When teachers start putting in more than 40 hours a week and work 52 weeks a year, rather than 8 months of the year, perhaps then taxpayers can consider pay equal to that of full-time workers. Note that police officers and nurses work 52 weeks a year. I would be willing to bet that police officers and nurses wish they could have fall break, winter break, spring break, institute days and appreciation days and 3 months off in the summer and still get paid the same salary.

"Daley also said he believed taxpayers can no longer finance the current level of government . . . And he blasted a teachers’ union he argued was more concerned about pay than in taking responsibility for educating the less well off." (Ditto for Evanston.)

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_st/2011/03/daley-were-a-country-of-whiners.html

Sure got quiet here, didn't it? I guess when confronted with facts, they haven't got much to say. When Mayor Daley and Governor Walker agree, I guess you could say that we have consensus, unless Mayor Richard Daley (D) is just one of those right wing nut jobs.

Thanks Richard. I doubt these doorknobs will ever acknowledge that you are correct, but you get my nod.

Matt R, you're quite welcome. Now it's time to get the information into the hands of the students. Maybe the students will stage a walk-out over their "fat cat" teachers and administrators. When is tax-payer appreciation day at the schools?

Every public school teacher should be required to post their salary and benefits package in their classroom for every student and parents to see. Underpaid? Not even Mayor Daley believes that b.s.

Wow! How inspiring! Those students should proudly serve their detentions! Just like young Ghandis and M.L.Kings!

"Remember the Koch phone call? Believe it, their thinking of someone "other than children." Its a good cover though!"

Yes, the teachers are just there "for the children". If that's so, why do teachers' unions oppose "vouchers" so that poor students can go to private schools if they wish? Why are teachers' unions opposed to merit pay? Why do American students lag behind when compared to students from other countries? Why did the DC teachers' union get Michelle Rhee fired when she tried to implement a voucher program?

See EvanstonPatch thread for a discussion of public schools:

http://evanston.patch.com/articles/local-restaurant-blamed-for-illness-that-left-30-people-sick?ncid=following_comment

This discussion has been going on for 3 weeks on EvanstonPatch.

"Well, I see no one is going to pull the wool over your eyes, ...are they Richard? Careful, you sound skeptical! One might accuse you of not making a big deal about how much money Wall Street took from the people who took a bath, and can't smile about it. Why don't you post your salery? Anyone ...you don't want to reveal it to?"

Emilie, I am self-employed. I am the CEO and the janitor of a 1 man firm and I work out of my home. (Been in business for myself since 1988.) I work in the construction business, at least I did until election day 2008. My net take-home pay in 2010 was $7 thousand. I have no health insurance. My home is in foreclosure and I am bankrupt. I am also an internationally known consultant-I'm known for my work on the collapse of the World Trade Center towers on 9/11, among other things. That's life in the big city, ain't it. I did get $300 in food stamp assistance last year, but food stamps rob you of your self-respect and after 5 weeks, I told the State of Illinois to keep their Link Card.

I have no problem with teachers making as much as engineering professionals. I don't think that any tax-payer would object to a teacher making the same amount of money that I did in 2010 (with no benefits, of course). Life is tough. I'm quite proud of what I have accomplished and I did it all on my own. Teachers have no idea what it is like to work in the real world.

You misspelled salary. God help your students.

Listening to the principals comment.... he supports them totally. I could almost see a sense of pride from him in them. I'm proud of them as well. This is the first school I seen do this, and I hope it becomes a wild virus, infectious and repetitive. I was worried about the thoughts of kids as its been years since I have seen kids bond together to protest anything. When people don't unite for anything, that's more scarey than when they do. Niles West.... you kids rock! Keep it up, your teachers need you!

To Richard S (again)
Still haven't seen a listing of jobs that have the same level of responsiblity as a teacher.

Some on his list are superintendents of schools, and it doesn't matter how mush you cut teachers pays.....those won't get cut. Those are like governors pays. lol

Golly, all the hatred and jealousy toward teachers because of their "gravy train" lifestyles . . . makes me wonder why the whiners didn't jump onto that gravy train so they could drive a teacher Mercedes, wear only New York designer clothes, purchase houses with libraries and built in swimming pools. I love the stats of "rich" teacher salaries, only to discover the really high numbers (and very few of them at that) are administrator salaries. The teacher salaries INCLUDE the benefits package. Write your salary here and add to it all the benefits you receive. You'd look like you were making a whole heck of a lot of money too.

As an Ohio teacher, I am apalled by some of your comments. We are facing a real crisis in our school and we will fight it. Our new govenor is an ex-Leihman Brothers director who helped put the country into this mess in the first place. He entered the governor's office with a "respponsible fiscal policy" and then raised all his cabinet members salaries and crested a "cush" position for a freind and former Leihman Brothers associate.
Teachers salaries may be huge in your state but they certainly aren't here. Most of our district teachers make well under $60,000 a year, pay part of their retirement (just as private sector matching plans do), contribute from 12-50 percent of their healthcare premimums (my premimun is only about $200 a month, but the deductible is $4000 a year for myself and one child) and routinely work many more than 7 1/2 hours a day. Those hours are often at home, late into the evenings and on weekends. Many teachers work over the summer in preparation of the coming school year and take classes. They also spend a LOT of their own money on supplies for their classrooms and for needy students. Let's look at the administration salaries if we want to make cuts - usually with better benefits their employees.
In Ohio, bad teachers CAN BE FIRED...but the administration has to take the time to document the problems, dotting the "i's", crossing the "t's". For some, that's too much work - it's easier to whine that the union won't let them do anything.

Awesome One and Designer: Good accurate posts about the true state of teachers in America. What you need to know is that this thread has been dominated by 2 0r 3 right wing, conservative, ignorant, and uneducated tea party types. A while ago I posted that it is futile to respond to them by giving them a forum to spout their inanities. You can also keep your blood pressure low because you cannot get through to a person who still thinks the earth is flat.

These people are representative of a phenomenon that has spread throughout the country. It is emblematic of what happens during times of great financial hardship, long protracted wars, or other ongoing crises where the American psyche goes through a crisis of confidence.

This long economic downturn has seen far right wing radical extremist conservatives and libertarians scapegoating legitimate governments, teachers, and unions as the source of our hard economic times and transformational social changes. In their minds, their sense of loss of control over their lives has been fueled by the advent of an African American president. Their overt or latent bigotry focus on his supposed illegitimacy to hold that office. This is a front because they really feel a threat from a person and group that was long denied power in this country taking over and replacing them on the socio-economic scale.

--to be continued in a second post because of limits on characters--

So much misinformation, so little time. First of all, teachers do not work eight months a year. They are there before the students arrive and remain after they are gone. Most teachers I know work nine and a half to ten months per year. Secondly, teachers do not "get summers off." To say that somebody "gets" time off implies that they get paid for it. Teachers do NOT get paid for summers. They may elect to take their ten month salary spread out over twelve months, but they're certainly not being paid for it! One teacher I know had their principal ask them if they would like their school to consider going year-round, and the teachers voted overwhelmingly, "Yes!" Third, although the school day is roughly 7 hours long, teachers must plan for their classes, submit paperwork proving they planned for their classes, study state standards for their subject areas, plan lessons that will teach the desired objectives, differentiate those lessons for their students of various ability levels, teach and coach the lessons and projects, and then grade them. An entire weekend can be used grading 300 research papers. In this computer age, teachers can do a great deal of work at home; and they do.

Frustrated teachers I know have this burning wish to see their detractors spend one month teaching in a classroom. Tony Danza did just that in a recent tv series. He thought his lectures were BRILLIANT, but realized his students weren't learning. He cried a lot . . . yes, cried real tears.

Awesome One, I agree that teachers do not work 8 months a year-most work less.

Your description of a teachers' day sounds exactly like a private sector professional worker. Most professionals I know work 10 to 12 hours a day and most professionals I know work more than 5 days a week. Personally, I work 7 days a week, 365 days a year, but that's just me.

If teachers' unions really wanted to work through the summer, then it would happen. The proof that teachers don't want to work 12 months a year is that they don't.

Enough with the nonsense of whether teachers only get paid for 8 months of work or 12 months of work. The annual pay is for 8 months of work. $60 thousand per year for working 8 months, equates to $90 thousand for working 12 months in the real world.

Every professional I know has to study to remain current and must take continuing education to remain licensed to do their job. Typically, that time comes out of their own pocket, not the company's pocket.

Teachers get annual pay more than police officers and nurses, but police officers and nurses work 12 months a year. Some police officers and nurses work the 3rd shift. Never heard of a teacher working the 3rd shift.

It's time to get over yourself. Life does not revolve you.

Teachers in private schools do a better job educating our children and make less money. Those teachers in private schools are also more happy since they are not constantly whining about how hard they work.

Washington Post:

" Nearly half the city workers in Costa Mesa received layoff notices last week. Street sweepers. Firefighters. Mechanics. Payroll clerks. Animal control workers. In all, about 210 of the city's 472 employees, many of whom have worked there for decades. On Thursday, as the notices were being handed out, one maintenance worker committed suicide by jumping from the city hall roof.

The cutbacks are necessary because the escalating costs of providing pensions for police, firefighters and other unionized employees are draining the city's revenue, city leaders say.

Within three years, city projections show, more than one of every five tax dollars will be spent on employees' retirement benefits, which were made far more generous in the years before the stock market crashed in 2008.

"Just do the math - this is unsustainable," said Jim Righeimer, the city's recently elected mayor pro tem. He campaigned on the pension issue, eliciting anger and a counter-campaign from the city's police and firefighters. "Under these kinds of burdens, we can't do everything the city needs to do." "

"Teachers in private schools do a better job educating our children and make less money. Those teachers in private schools are also more happy since they are not constantly whining about how hard they work."

Hah! Put on your thinking cap, Richard! Why do you think test scores are higher in private schools? Do you REALLY think it's because they "teach better" there? C'mon, wrack your brain. By jove, I think you've got it! Private schools are SELECTIVE. Yes, if a student acts out, has special learning requirements, emotional or behavioral problems, the principal kindly calls in the parents and says, "I'm afraid we don't have the facilities here to fully service your child. However, the public schools do. We want the very best for your child and we think he would be better off getting the services he needs down the street." Yes, Richard, guess who gets those children? Public schools do. Then they average their scores together and the highest scores are pulled down by the lowest scores. It's simple mathematics.

Are you aware of the three highest performing schools in the state of Illinois? They are North Side College Prep, Payton College Prep, and Whitney Young High school. All three are primarily fed from Chicago Public Schools. How does this jibe with all the negative rhetoric about Chicago schools? One reason. These high schools are SELECTIVE. The best and brightest in the district feeds into these schools. I guess teachers are doing their jobs after all.

Oh, and, if you think private school teachers are completely content with their salaries, then speak to a few of them. They are very frustrated, however, they don't have a group to represent their reality as public schools do. I guess your philosophy is, "Out of sight, out of mind."

Baker Dem school reviews seem to fall mostly along these lines:
A great school has excellent teachers, strong leadership and challenging academics. This school could be great some day - but it needs to have a principal stay more than one year and has to find a way to get and keep experienced teachers.
—Submitted by a parent

At $30,000/year grammar school tuition, I'd be pretty ticked off. Seems they have trouble getting and keeping experienced teachers and principals.

Whoops, forgot to post the link. http://www.greatschools.org/school/parentReviews.page?id=5039&state=IL

Richard Schulte: Mr. Schulte, I am sorry for your economic plight. You are caught up in a similar position like too many Americans. I only wish you the best in these trying times. You are obviously, by the way you write, an intelligent person. Unfortunately, the content of your writing is not very informed or intelligent. You are part of an interesting part of the public who are naturally very intelligent but have a warped and ininformed view of the world you live in. I would put Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman in that category. Although Palin is an opportunist, Bachman is just a weirdo. I believe in your case, you are probably a nice person.

You were smart in sending your kids to Baker Demonstration School. One of my grandchildren goes there. It is without doubt a model of how schools should be and is one of the best institutions of its kind in the world. However, I fear you reveal too much about your personal life online. It is not wise as there are all sorts of crazies out there.

I truly hope you become enlightened and stop reading such crazy conservative sights. You have a lot to contribute but undoubtedly are hampered by harboring an unreal view of the world.

Best of luck, Seymour J. Schwartz

Dr. Schwartz, thank you for your kind words. America's future is bright and I expect better times sooner or later. Until that time comes, we all have to grin and bare it. To quote Winston Churchill, "If you are going through hell, keep going."

I once was a liberal, but I like to say that I grew up. To once again quote Winston Churchill:

"If you are young and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you are old and not conservative, you have no brain."

(Perhaps Churchill didn't say that and someone else did, but it sounds in character.)

Those right wing nut job websites, like the American Thinker website and Drudge, contain all sorts of interesting and useful information.

It's unfortunate that the issue of teacher compensation can't be discussed without everyone getting all defensive. Teachers need to realize that simply because they are promised a pension, it doesn't mean that they will get it. In the late 1960's, my father's got 4 cents on the dollar of his pension when the company he worked for 25 years went out of business. Nothing in life is guaranteed. Governor Walker may be the best thing that ever happened to teachers. Governor Walker's way will save teachers jobs and may save the pensions they were promised. Teachers may not get everything they were promised by politicians, but if they can get 95 cents on the dollar, they will be far better off than my father was. Incidentally, he died at age 44 so it didn't make a damn bit of difference.

Regards.

"Richard! ...Shame on you! You have done it again. "Life does not revolve you! ...Don't you mean ..."around you?" You see, it's a bummer to be rude, isn't it?"

I'm so ashamed for having left out a word. . . .but, I owe you a debt of gratitude for calling it to my attention. (My excuse is that I am not a public school teacher.) Fortunately, you were intelligent enough to figure out what I meant. You deserve a 20 percent raise and maybe another 6 or 7 personal days a year for that.

You seem ecstatic over my error. Glad that I could make happy. (I left the word "you" out intentionally just so you would have something to write.)

"Teachers deserve everything they can get! They don't just teach children, they very often have to do the parents job, withstand abuse, (guns, knives and criminal misfit attitudes) ...and all because they just do not want to learn. Their job have become a dangerous occupation in today's world, when a blend of real danger emanates the classrooms. It should be more interesting for young ones who want to learn, but pressure, bullying, peer pressure and etc., ups the ante."

We need some violin music here. The problems in the schools with violence can be attributed to teachers and their support of lax attitudes since the 1960's. The Catholic sisters that were my teachers maintained order in the classroom with 30 children in the class. And if I had a behavior problem in school, my father took care of that when he came home from work.

The 3 week teachers' riot in Madison set a poor example for our children on how to behave. Calling in "sick" in order to attend a protest set a good example for our children. Having doctors write fake notes of illness teaches our children that lying is acceptable. Associating with union thugs, like Richard Trumka, tells our children that violence is acceptable. If teachers are so violent, why shouldn't students be violent?

Students watch how their teachers act and take their cue from that. Do not blame students for acting the same as their adult role models. To quote the Reverend Jerimiah Wright, "our chickens have come home to roost".

"The Catholic sisters that were my teachers maintained order in the classroom with 30 children in the class."
What you don't mention is that children with learning problems were called "dumb" (literally). You were lucky to be a smart child because if you weren't, they didn't quite know what to do with you. The "smart" kids learned, the kids with learning challenges were marginalized or worse. They also didn't have standardized testing the way states require it now, so there was little accountability.

Nuns (who did not require teaching certificates in the old days) also "maintained order" because they had carte blanche to use corporal punishment, and they did. I went to Catholic schools as a child and personally witnessed kids, usually boys, getting slapped in the face. That's REAL violence. I would never want that for my children, but I can't speak for you.

"...And if I had a behavior problem in school, my father took care of that when he came home from work."
Richard, I think you've got it! Teachers are frustrated due to lack of parental and societal support. No parent thinks THEIR child is the problem. They storm into schools to give the teachers "whatfor", but they do like talk about how everybody ELSE'S kid is the problem.

The real problem is society and the way education is viewed and supported. It's wrong to pinpoint school problems to only one source.

The joke is on us. Seymour Shwartz is actually a third grader posing as a teacher. No teacher could be that biased and ignorant to the facts. If teachers were as stupid as seymour, the graduation rate in Chicago would be 50%, in Detroit 30%, in Philadelphia 42%.

Seymour nice comeback. Answer me one question please where is the 57th state. President Obama stated he has been in all 57 states , I am just having trouble finding it. Maybe if I ask a marine corpse man, as president Obama refers to them in his own intelligent way, he could help me find that 57th state. Or maybe there is a clue from the 1929 telivision adress given by then president FDR., according to vice pres. Biden.

Brad, since you were civil in your response to me, and trying to keep to my last post of being adult and not juvenile, here is my answer to your last question.

The brain is the most marvelous and complex thing in the universe that we know of. We have learned a great deal about the brain in the last 40 years, yet we have barely scratched the surface. The synaptic connections in our neural network sometimes go haywire resulting in our connecting memories in a most ineffectual way. Even the most intelligent of us sometimes make foolish or incorrect associations.

Early in my career I worked with the Department of Defense as a civilian in a very sensitive position carrying a Defense Dept. ID with the civilian equivalent ranking of a colonel. We were trained to carefully watch what we said in public even in innocuous situations so as not to draw attention of ourselves. Believe me, it was hard to do, because when you are in an unguarded state, synaptic errors can easily occur.

Obama and Biden are highly intelligent and maybe even brilliant men who are well learned. This is innate and has nothing to do with their political perspectives. How do we know if one is well learned rather than just ignorant, whether they are smart or not?

--to be continued on next post--

Why Mr Schwartz;
I must have missed something! I thought all the serious people who addressed you, WERE ..."talking to the wind."

Seymour I do not know the Pres. nor the V.P. personally so it would be impossible for me to make am assessment of their intelligence either way.However i can make an assessment on the inconsistency of arguing, reporting, or the attempt to show that someone is stupid or ridiculas by some statement taken out of context or appears to be stupid. We all make mistakes, all I ask is equal treatment under the law. If one is to be ridiculed for stupid statements then all should be fair game. If Sara Palin made the idiotic statement of 57 states, or said corpse man she would be tormented endlessly. In an honest conversation I think that you would agree with that. So if a private citizen such as Palin is to be held to that standard, then everyone especially the president should be held at least to the same standard.

Hey guys. You need to understand where Seymour is coming from. He is a retired professor from the Cook county community colleges and he writes extreme left wing articles that refer to Obama as a heavy weight and McCain as a light weight. You can be a democrat or republican, but this guy is out to lunch. Hence his 6000 character responses and insults. I guess I'm insulting him with this post, but I think it is important to understand why i personally don't take him seriously. Everyone is free to be pro-union or anti-union, but extremists are unable to debate, they simply preach.

Matt R: I assume you tried to Google me. There are over 10,000 citations for many different Seymour Schwartz'. How do you know you have the right one? Nevertheless, you failed to mention that I also taught at The University of Maryland, Southern Illinois University, and a university of Europe.

I do not consider myself a leftist, whatever that means. I do readilly acknowledge that I am a progressive, formerly called a liberal. Other than in a medium like this, everything I have published is scholarly. That is, they must be supported by reliable sources or evidence and held up to peer scrutiny.

The article you are referring looked at the presidential candidates and one VP candidate of 2008. It was published and I presented that paper at a national conference of my peers. My most revealing part of that study was a surprising dissection of John McCain. He has always had an excellent public relations team surrounding him and they have quite successfully created an image of him that is misleading and often at opposites of reality. He has also been aided by the fact that his grandfather and father were high ranking Naval Admirals.

Some false images of McCain:

He was a lousy Naval pilot--crashed three jets--one for showboating flying into high wires, one missing the landing on an aircraft carrier and crashing his plane in the ocean (although he once heroically ran into a burning jet on an aircraft carrier rescuing the pilot), ---to be continued---

Ya. I have the right one. Not going to debate politics with an extremeist except to say that you seem ok with Obama's qualifications but not McCain. I don't like either, but you still amuse me. Oh god please do not respond with 3 more posts. No one cares.

---To Brad, Part two----

By almost every standard of intelligence one can rationally use, Barack Obama is a highly intelligent person and so is Joe Biden.

I do not believe all the public figures we mentioned, whether they are Democrats or Republicans or Libertarians, progressive or conservative or tea partiers, are treated unfairly in reaction to their remarks. They have all been fair game by the media (with the usual but not always exception of Fox News) Television and even the internet in a large part theater and a business. Gaffes make news and bring in audiences which bring in advertising revenue. That is the main formula that determines what gets covered and published or shown.

Unfortunately, too much of the public look at the comments about public figures we happen to like in a more jaundiced and biased way and we looked at the comments of public figures we don't like in a more jaded way. Fairness places a heavy burden on us all. We have to work really hard to work through our own biases and proclivities.

A good writer values and displays brevity.

Brevity is not the number of words used, but the ability to communicate a point concisely. Aside from the bible, each author you mentioned had incredibly complex messages to transmit through his or her large tomes. Not one paragraph contained a repeat, paraphrase, or redundantly illustrated point for lack of ability to clarify. For these reasons, I say the listed authors display brevity.

I have learned some interesting things from the posts from the last few days, but what I do not have is answers to questions that I asked three or four weeks ago on EvanstonPatch (the Merle's story). At the risk of repeating myself and being severely chastised. . .

Why should teachers' salaries be higher than police officers' salaries? Please, no emotional responses to this question, just give me facts in concise a manner as possible. No emotional arguments from Emilie please. Don't mean to pick on you, Emilie, but women want to be treated as equals, so I'll treat you like I was speaking to a male. (Apparently, some women don't actually like being treated as equals.)

Why do teachers' unions oppose merit pay?

Why do teachers' unions oppose vouchers so that poor and middle class students can attend private schools if they wish?

Why would teachers' unions have anything to do with Richard Trumpka? Trumpka is a violent thug. Does that mean that teachers support violence and intimidation? Violence is a 2 way street, you know.

Why are teachers' unions and their supporters intimidating voters in Wisconsin? If voters want to sign a recall petition of the Democrat senators who ran away, why are they being subjected to intimidation? I believe the First Amendment to the constitution allows citizens to express themselves by signing recall petitions, regardless of party affiliation.

Don't tell me about how dumb Sarah Palin is-she's a private citizen at present.

Here is the truth: The School Board is trying to gain leverage on the Union for next year's contract negotiations, when in fact the Districts finances are quite good (and getting better every year). Don't believe me? Here you go:

ftp://ftpfinance.isbe.state.il.us/AFRProfile/2010/05016219017.pdf

This Union busting board led by Mr. Silverman needs to take their circus act North to Wisconsin.

--To Richard Continued--part 2--

Another reason is that our society considers education as one of the if not the most important occupation or institution for the betterment and progress of society. Therefore, because of the importance of that profession for everyone, teachers are expected to perform the most crucial and valuable of all jobs--preparing the young and older population to survive and thrive. Consequently, because of this great responsibility, they should be paid among the highest of occupations. Of course, with this should go accountability and nothing less than overwhelming responsibility to go along with pay levels, but that will get us into a whole other place.

2."Why do teachers unions oppose merit pay?" Good question. Because through the power of numbers through unions, they have reached the crumbs of pay and benefits not commensurate with what they ought to receive and would probably would be in a worse compenstory state if they were not united. Because of this necessity, to keep unity, it is important for all teachers to be paid at the same level based on certain categories agreed upon by its leadership and its negotiating partners. Remember, something that can be quantified is always easier to do than to measure something more value laden. ---to be continued--

--Richard Part 3--

Sorry this is taking so much space but I am trying to answer all of your questions.

Also public school teachers are aware that most private and charter schools are selective in choosing the students they serve. Those with the greatest behavior problems, lowest levels of skills and intelligence, and some of the most severly handicapped necessitating specialized schools are not usually admitted. Public schools are mandated to serve all students. Therefore comparing public and private schools is akin to comparing apples and space ships.

Finally, they are opposed to vouchers because in some of the poor performing schools, if there were a close in viable alternative, they fear so many parents will take them out of the public schools that the public school teachers, job will be in jeopardy.

Running out of time, therefore answers will be short. All your questions about Wsconsin in order, my answers.

1.Intimidating voters in Wisconsin--very subjective; the polls show that the vast majority of Wisc. citizens support the public workers in Wisconsin. Rest my case.

2. To the extent that the voters who want to sign petitions in Wisc are being intimidated, I am sure the opposite in the efforts to recall Republican senators is occuring. This is an emotional issue. Improper things occur in all political events and campaigns. It is unfair to single out a few instance of this and extrapolating to the whole movement.

---to be continued---

Aw Richard, your questions are too good to pass up. 1) Police officers should not be making less than teachers as they put their lives on the line for the safety of the community. Wherever this exists, it is wrong. 2) As yet, there is no fair and accurate way of measuring teacher merit. All stats conclusively show that socioeconomic status of the school neighborhood or city is directly proportional to test scores. In this case, what teacher would want to teach in a poor area and have their salary based on low test scores? Do we leave "teacher merit" up to one or two classroom observations by principals who need not have ever taught in a classroom themselves in order to achieve their positions? What about favoritism? 3) Teachers oppose vouchers because attention, focus, and money that could be going toward improving already-existing schools will be diverted, thus making conditions at neighborhood schools worse. Also, test scores in neighborhood schools would go down because it would be mostly the higher-achieving students who will have parents savvy enough to seek vouchers. 4) I have no idea who Richard Trumka is. 5) Sarah Palin is being unfairly trounced in the biased media. She is at present a private citizen and should be treated as such.

From the American Thinker website:

" Phoenix's Isaac School District, which plans to shutter schools and lay off employees because of money problems, will let Superintendent Carlos Bejarano retire June 30 and return to his same job - with the same compensation and perks - the next day.

Bejarano, 58, will retain his $130,000 annual salary, an $8,400 car allowance, an $8,000 annual tax-deferred annuity, and a $3,000 community-affairs allowance to use at his discretion. The district also will give him $11,238 so he can buy health-insurance coverage, according to district officials.

Bejarano will receive an annual pension estimated at $104,650 after retiring with 35 years of service, records reviewed by The Arizona Republic show, bringing his total annual compensation to roughly $265,000."

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/03/playing_taxpayers_for_suckers.html

A few more facts, if I may. . .

Lincoln was a Republican. John Wilkes Boot, who assassinated President Lincoln, was a Democrat. President Grant, who administered the Reconstruction of the South, was also a Republican. During Reconstruction, the Democrats in the South formed the Klu Klux Klan (KKK)-you know those guys who burned crosses to terrify black folks.

In 1965, many Democrats, such as Tennessee Senator Albert Gore, Sr., the father of Vice President Al Gore, and Arkansas Senator J. William Fullbright (President Clinton's mentor) opposed civil rights legislation. The (racist) Republicans supported civil rights legislation in 1965.

Chicago is the most racially segregated city in the country-has been for that way forever. In the 1950's, Mayor Daley had the high rise public housing along the Dan Ryan Expressway built in order to keep Chicago racially segregated. Which party controls Chicago-the Dems or them nasty mean racist Republicans?

How does this relate to the subject of public schools and public school teachers. It is my opinion, based upon the above, that schools in the City of Chicago are intentionally kept bad. If our public school students were taught history properly, they would see that things are so nice and, just maybe, that mean nasty racist Governor Walker and other Republicans are actually concerned about education in our schools and about poor black folks too.

We need bad public schools to keep those folks on the Democrat plantation.

Richard, I have not read any post that said Sarah Palin should not trade on her fame and make money. You seem to be setting up a red herring. I agree with you that she is pretty and intelligent, but not overly bright.

I liken her to people like Za Za Gabor and Paris Hilton. All three have little talent and substance but are supurb at self-promotion. They are a magnets for drawing attention to themselves, and have a captivating presence that mezmerize the public. Charlie Sheen has substance and talent but also is a genius at self-promotion.

It is interesting that all three whom I mentioned happen to be women. I can't think of any men with whom I would add to that group. When we refer to Palin, we mention that she is intelligent and pretty. How often do we refer to male public figures with those characteristics as seemingly the first things out of our mouths?

And therein lay the essence of her attractiveness. She burst on the public radar out of nowhere, with little public experience being chosen by John McCain to run for the potentially second most powerful position in the land bearing responsibility for ensuring the safety and welfare of 300 million Americans.

These factors combined with her talents for smoothness in public speaking, cleverness in the rough and tumble of American politics, and ability to draw you into her contrived orbit without saying anything of substance and depth of thought, and you have what I call The Sarah Palin Phenomenon.

I just came across this from the well-respected Politico and its newsletter Wire supporting my contention that John McCain is an unprincipled chameleon like hypocrite.

McCain's Libya Amnesia

In an interview on CBS News, Sen. John McCain twice cited the fact that Moammar Gadhafi has "American blood on his hands" as a reason the U.S. Should try to oust the dictator.

However, Salon notes that just 18 months ago McCain "led a delegation of senators including fellow hawks Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman on a trip to visit the Libyan leader in Tripoli. Discussed during the visit was delivery of -- get this -- American military equipment to Gadhafi (a man with American blood on his hands no less)."

"None of which is to say it was wrong to pursue better relations with Libya. But it's ironic that McCain is now citing the fact that Gadhafi has 'American blood on his hands' as a reason to bomb Libya, considering McCain himself met with Gadhafi less than two years ago."

It's been 56 years since the US Supreme Court issued a ruling on Brown v. the Board of Education (1954) and we have yet to be able to figure out how to help minority students with their education. Regardless of how much money we throw at the public school system, the results are the same with respect to minority children. Why is this? Minority children are not dumb. After 56 years of trying, the only logical explanation is that it is intentional.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The teachers' union way hasn't worked. Our public schools keep getting worse. It's time to try something else.

Dr. Thomas Sowell and Dr. Walter Williams, both black educators now in their 70's, were able to survive segregation and become highly successful. Perhaps, we could ask them for their advice. Condeleeza Rice was able to survive segregated schools in Birmingham to become President Bush's National Security Advisor and Secretary of State. Justice Clarence Thomas' early years were similar.

If we asked successful minority conservatives what to do, I am willing to bet that they would have some very good ideas. Of course, all of these ideas would be opposed by the teachers' unions because they might be successful and break the cycle of failure in the public schools if implemented.

There is no doubt in my mind that what's going on in our public schools is intentional sabotage of minority students/future voters.

"Your assertion that schools in Chicago are intentionally kept bad is utter nonsense. Barack Obama, in one of the greatest speeches in American history during the presidential campaign of 2008 about race in America was absolutely correct in saying that race relations in America is a most complex, complicated, and seemingly intractable problem that needs to be continually addressed. Putting it in terms that you did becomes obfuscating and misleading. People's public and private position on race are more complex than this."

How to deal with race is rather simple. If we would all treat each other as Americans, things would be better. Instead, we have white Americans, black Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, etc., etc., etc. Let's simply stop all the preferential treatment which pits one race against another and say that we're all equal now. No more racial preferences-that approach has made things worse.

Incidentally, I lived part-time in the South (New Orleans) for 11 years (2000-2010). Racial relations in New Orleans are far better than in Cook County. Chicago is the most racially segregated city in America, and, of course, we know which political party has dominated Cook County since the 1950's. Dems can't run away from that. Black folks are leaving Chicago in droves. Same for Detroit. Why is that? They have waited 50 years for things to get better and nothing ever changes. "Hope and Change" only means greater unemployment in the black community.

I've heard a lot of opinions about the reasons for student lack of achievement, but the suggestion that teachers deliberately make students perform poorly is a new one. If minority status was the issue, then Middle Eastern and Asian students would be failing miserably, but the opposite is true. Here is what I know:
1) Teacher merit pay was attempted in New York, and it turned out to be a failure. There was no improvement and, in some cases, student scores decreased.
2) Charter schools, for all their hype, are abject failures. With the exception of one or two schools across the nation, charters have been found to do as well or worse than their neighborhood counterparts. The Chicago Charters have been on the Federal Watch List for poor performance for six years. Working conditions at some charters are so bad and unfair that teachers are forming their own charter school union.
3) All stats show that test scores are directly tied to socioeconomic status. You can't get a kid to care about the value of x in an algebraic expression if his home life is falling apart and he has nothing to eat. The converse is also true.
4) The only ones not allowed to make educational decisions are teachers. Why aren't the ones in the trenches asked how to solve problems? They must follow directives from non-educators, shut up, and teach.
5) Union contract rules provide students good learning conditions. For example, class size limits, recess provisions, fine art and music ...out of writing space.

Awesome, the idea that failure of the educational system for minority children is intentional is not a new idea at all. Our public schools are indoctrination factories. If you reviewed the thread on EvanstonPatch and looked at Ms. Flood's posts, you might get the idea. Ms. Flood thinks education is "irrelevant" and I get the impression that she is a public school teacher. "Irrelevant" was her word, not mine.

If we gave minority children a good education and then they went on to get good jobs, many of them would be voting Republican. Without a 90 percent turnout of minorities for Democrats, the Dems would cease to exist on the national level. A few black folks are starting to get the idea. If you want to see panic in the streets, let 2 or 3 percent more of black folks start voting for the other party.

Black folks are not getting a fair shake in our public education system because they keep voting for the Dems. Their vote is taken for grantd. "Hope and Change" for black folks is letting the Democrats know that either we get better schools or we're voting for Governor Walker and his political allies all over the US. You want to watch things change fast? That's all that has to be done.

Right now, the electorate is pretty much split 50-50. Any shift one way or the other and the tie is broken. In November 2010, the folks in the middle went Republican and threw out the Dem Governor, Assembly and Senate in Wisconsin. Even Jan Schakowsky actually had to campaign.

---Part 2 from my post on education---

If you want a good part of the answer, it is explained in my published article on School Reform in America. The whole journal containing the article is posted on the internet and if you send me your email addresses, I will give you the citation. You can email me at seyschwartz@gmail.com.

The article deals with neuroscience, culture, child rearing, relevent research findings in the brain development of the cerebral cortex , developmental modes of learning, socio-economic-cultural factors, reform in education as a reflection of the larger society, workforce needs of the business community, and political needs of politicians, the role of professional educators as consultants and so-called 'experts, and other factors.

It is not easy reading because the issue of educational reform is tied around a complex interplay between all these contributive factors.

Dr. Schwartz, from my years of experience in the private sector, usually the simplest solutions are the best solutions. When I hear about complex solutions to a problem, I cringe. "Keep it simply sweetheart" is the model which usually yields the best results.

Dr. Sowell and Dr. Williams are two brilliant men who just happen to have more pigment in their skin than other folks. Of course, these two gentlemen are not the only experts. Michelle Rhee has made excellent proposals. Michelle Rhee's website, studentsfirst.org, contains common sense solutions (which, of course, teachers' unions despise). Nothing can replace common sense.

I'm hoping that students at Niles West High School will read through this thread and begin to understand the intermingling of politics and their education. Certainly, the historical perspective of the involvement of the Democrat Party in racial politics is important for the students to gain perspective. Once you understand the history of the Democrat Party in Chicago and around the country, you begin to see that Democrats are anything but the friends of minorities, the poor and the down-trodden. Their teachers will never tell them about the relationship between Democrats and the KKK.

Dr. Schwartz would like to deny the historical facts by pointing to one example, David Duke. One example doesn't change 100 years of history after the Civil War. Minorities are being robbed of the educational opportunities that they deserve.

Richard, what you say makes sense in light of the article linked below. It was because of information like this that I was concerned with Scott Walker, who had been funded into office through the Tea Party by Charles Koch, the fifth wealthiest man in the nation. Another man to keep your eyes on is Bill Gates, the number one wealthiest man in America. Although he has never in his life taught in any type of classroom, he is targeting Illinois to implement his new education platform. It is the wealthy elite who run this country, and they want to smash any groups that might threaten their ability to do so.

At first your comments above about "keeping minorities down" was startling, until I remembered that I believe this too; not necessarily about minorities but about the working class in general. As Wisc. Senator Fitgerald admitted, if they smash the unions, then the middle class voting power is diminished. How can middle class people be a match for one billionaire unless they band together?

When Obama wanted to repeal the George Bush tax cuts, republicans were screaming that a combined salary of $250,000 was NOT wealthy . . . why, it was working class income! One talking head even called it poverty level (I heard her say it). Those very same republicans now say that a teacher earning $65,000 is making TOO MUCH MONEY. The wealthy elite very definitely do want to keep the little guy down. The teachers have no idea. http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/textbook2.html

Richard, in the case of education complex is definitely the operative word. Two things have to happen and I will not try to explain them in detail as it would be too involved and detailed for this type of venue.

First, the whole structure of public education has to be turned upside down getting away from the present structure and curriculum and the way things are taught which is modeled on a society in the 1800s needs of industrialization. Public schools ever since have been structured based on a mechanical way of operating in a factory. Yes, a factory. Students are looked at as mechanical tools, standardized, categorized, and robotized. They learn by being told what to know, rather than by guided discovery--by rote repetition.

Second, for students to do better at learning in school, schools have little if any significant base role. The most important years affecting a youngsters ability to learn occurs between the ages of birth through three years of age. Up to the first year is the most significant period. Neurological synaptic pathways in the cerebral cortex involved in the complexities of thought are developed during that period and affect the quality of one's learning for the rest of their lives. Nothing can change that after three. Thus the crucial element in how well a student will learn is dependent on the environment in the first three years of life, particularly his/her people contacts. Schools have little to do with it.

--to be continued--

--Richard Part 2 -- As for your other points. Thomas Sowell is a well respected laissez faire economist, social commentator, and intellectual scholar. But he is also a libertarian in his political views. Libertarianism is just a hairs breath short of advocating a society based on anarchy.

Michelle Rhee, who has gotten great national exposure and press, has it all wrong. She basically thinks that imposing better discipline, structure, and accountability of teachers will create miracles. She does not recognize that it is not basically school change that will make poor learners anything other than that.

Finally, your comments on Democratic contributions to racism. Yes, Democrats contributed to it, but no less than Republicans. The difference is in eras & circumstances encountered. Roles have reversed a number of times. As for the Democrat Party in Chicago, I know its history very well. Your knowledge about it is very spotty & selective. Democrats never ran Chicago until around 1930 with the first Democratic machine formed by Mayor Anton Cermak. While Dems have been in power ever since, Republicans out of power were just as supportive of keeping blacks down. Also, before the 1930s, the Chicago Race Riots occurred in the 19 teens during Republican adminstrations. So, its' history in Chicago is much more complicated than the picture you have portrayed. Its getting late, good night.

Richard: The point here is that schools in America have never been very good. The model of a school and education based on the model and needs of an industrializing society have largely been antithetical to the development of the thinking mind.

Even with this bad model of education, given the criteria for success of that model, yes, schools in Chicago have deteriorated since the mid 1940s with the end of WWII. Two important things occurred. The baby boom generation and the democratization of education. This occurrence, like the democratization of sports, baseball in particular, has resulted in a diminishment of quality.

The only meaningful connection that can be made between the Democrats holding power in Chicago and this decline in education is that The Democrats Just Happened to be in Power During This Period. These factors were national in scope, not local.

As for Democrats demanding excellent schools everwhere, keep in mind the Dems were reflective of the rest of white society in the fifties and sixties. Excellent schools in ghetto areas was of little concern to a white population afraid of their own shadow. But as the culture changed in the seventies and eighties, (not coincidentally seeing the beginning of the modern school reform movement in 1982 which quickly became a crusade to improve education for minorities), Democrats got on board and demanded improved schools for minorities, like everyone else.

---to be continued---

Comments painting the situation with a broad brush will be full of holes. Each situation needs to be addressed specificaly. This article dealt with District 219.
As has been done for decades at this district teachers prey upon young impressionable minds to support their cause. The average district 219 teacher according to published info makes $97,000.00 per year. They work less than 194 days per year so this works out to oover $500.00 per work day.
There needs to be bargaining parity between management and labor. Teachers have had the upper hand by being able to strike and hold the kids hostage.
If they do not agree to a new contract by June 30 of any year that the contract expires, fire them all and hang out the "Help Wanted Sign".
I think we will have more than enough highly qualified applicants to fill any vacant positions at these pay rates.

Awesome One: You are quite correct in your last post. I am not quite sure who or what exactly you are referring to when you write the author did not get due credit. Assuming it is you, I will repeat, you are quite correct in your last post :-)

I do take issue with you calling the non-super wealthy as the 'little people'. A more appropriate description would be the non-wealthy as The Good and the super wealthy as The Evil. :-)

Seriously, I have never quite understood why just plain middle class or upper middle class politicians, whose personal and even political interests are not really aligned with the corporate super rich in this country, risk everything including their dignity in supporting the interests of the super rich lock, stock, and barrel?

There are other ways to get campaign money to help them survive politicallly. Unless they hold very high federal public office, these corporate contributors have little interest to give them high paying jobs in the private sector once they leave office. Out of office, they are less likely to be given the time of day by people like the Koch brothers.

The Wisconsin Republican state senators looked like fools. They were idiots to treat the Dem senators so viciously because they have to work with them every day. Dead fish ala Rahm will be child's play as opposed to other kinds of retribution they face by Dem colleagues, I predict.

--to be continued--

Internationalism. Having the power to "create" world peace. John D. Rockefeller Jr., who had a dream of controlling all the world's oil refining, for example, was so desirous of a unified world power he donated the land for the United Nations building in New York. His son David said in 1994, "This present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for too long. We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order." David Rockefeller also admitted later in life, "For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

That may explain what the wealthiest Americans want. Also, Mr. Schwartz, the article to which I referred for credit was not my own writing, but this excellent piece on the manipulation of history: http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/textbook2.html

From studentsfirst.org:

"We agree all children in America deserve an excellent education, but the question remains -- are they getting it?

When polled, only 27 percent of voters feel our public schools are excellent/good. And with almost every state facing cuts in education spending, we must look seriously at what can be done to improve our schools.

The first step is making sure we save our best teachers from layoffs."

Amen.

>>>Awesome One
10:44pm on Thursday, March 24, 2011
The average teacher salary in Niles is $54,924 and
<<<<

This is just WRONG! Unlees you are not referring to District 219
See
http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php

Mr. Weiss (and others that hold similar beliefs):

Are you anti-Teacher, anti-High Taxes, anti-Union, or all of the above?

If you are anti-Teacher, you seem to be so because they are highly paid in 219. Is that the only thing that makes you mad? Are they bad people or bad teachers? As I know you are oft-published in the Skokie Review, I am sure you can dig up the following article:

---

District 219 , unions settle pacts until 2012
Skokie Review (IL) - Thursday, December 20, 2007
Author: KATHY ROUTLIFFE

Here is my favorite quote from that article:

"We're thrilled," board President Robert Silverman said at the beginning of the board's regular meeting.

---

That is your elected official I assume, the current School Board President claiming how ecstatic he was to pass what is the current Union Contracts (now, slightly modified). So who is to blame for the High Salaries?

---

Maybe you don't like him (or the School Board) either, and if I had to guess why, I would assume it is because the district is "banking" so many of your Tax Dollars. I'm sure you will appreciate this:

ftp://ftpfinance.isbe.state.il.us/AFRProfile/2010/05016219017.pdf

---

Oh....that has to ruffle your feathers, right? I know how much you loved that last referendum, so I am sure we will see a Letter to the Editor soon referencing these financial data.

---

Or is it Unions in general you dislike? You can move to Wisconsin, or Ohio, or Michigan, or ...they don't like Unions there either.

Just to finish my thought (above):

I am thankful I live in Illinois, and more specifically, in the Chicago area - my beliefs are in line with most of the politicians that represent me (with the obvious exception of some on the 219 School Board).

I, for one, intend on keeping and/or making it that way via my vote in every election, and am going to work hard to ensure the core values that I believe are valued in this area are not diminished.

Just when I take a break this evening from this thread, I return and see so much erroneous and false crap. Richard, who has been civil and even posted some things that made sense lately seems to revert to crazy statistics (remember just because you see it printed or on the 'net doesn't make it accurate; I told you to broaden your sources away from the conservative sites that spew so much erroneous garbage). Awesome One is still right on the ball when it comes to the topic of education. And a newcomer, Mr. EarlWeiss is out in left field (not such a bad thing as I used to play left field in college).

I am not sure what attracted me to writing on this thread. I usually do not take the time to do it as i write on threads by my professional colleagues and The N.Y. Times. Perhaps it is the teacher in me to want to share my knowledge that kept me going and I got hooked. Even as I retired from professing 7 years ago, and I was a really good one in the classroom, there are still plenty of other kinds of opportunities to teach.

But, I have a life, and one as busy as that when I was an active professor. Just diversified more. So, for all those followers of this thread who wrote me and urged me to continue to write, even the one who wrote that if I had a blog of my own, she would start a fan club, I want to say that I will be trying to slow down my contributions to this thread. I will still contribute but it will be more sparingly.

---to be continued in Part 2---

---Part 3 from Seymour Schwartz---

If the AVERAGE SALARY is $97,000/year, (a mathemation, which I am not could figure this out with an algorythm), there would have to be many, many teachers (not administrators or superintendents) earning around $140,000 per year and a whole bunch of teachers earning in the range of $40,000--$50,000 per year. So the $97,000 is an artificial number somewhere in the middle of the pack of earnings for Evanston teachers. Yet how many think to themselves that $97,000 is what MOST Evanston teachers earn? Misleading, huh? It has been said one can ascribe any meaning to statistics.

Further, I happen to know that the average teacher nationally makes around $60,000 plus per year. Some make a base salary as low as $19,000 in poor rural America and some, obviously a great deal more. Yet they all get lumped together as 'teachers' in these discussions.

I also know the Evanston school system quite well as both my children graduated from it, and I was once appointed to head a group to advise the superindentent and the Board of Education on some educationalmatter. Evanston Township High School teachers get paid considerably more than the grammar school teachers. This phenomena is common throughout the country. Imagine how an Evanston elementary teacher feels when they read that their colleagues in the high school is lumped together with them and their lower salaries?

--to be continued in Part 4--

---PART 5 ON EDUCATIONAL SALARIES FROM SEYMOUR, hopefully the last part---

Most teachers everywhere don't reach those high range in salaries until near the end of their career after 30-30 five years of service. When they were younger with many more responsibilities like raising a family and sending kids to college, their much lower salaries put many in debt.

Variations in average teacher salaries differ from district to district which account for the differing figures from Earl Weiss, to Richard Schulte, and Awsome One. These salaries tend to be similar to that of surrounding districts which, particularly in Illinois, rely on much of their revenue from property taxes. Districts in the North Shore can't even be compared with those paupers in rural Southern Illinois. Small town rural America compare poorly with big city districts. Similar disparities exist between different regions and states throughout America. So what do these salary averages really mean?

Further complicating things are other variables that are often not spelled out in these figures. These include the possible inclusion of summer school, extra activities for pay such as coaching, drama teachers writing and directing and producing theater productions, in rural area, many teachers also drive the school bus, etc. Teachers don't get paid for all the papers they grade at home which adds immeasurably to their daily work hours.

Now this is what I mean by using facts and producing wisdom!

>>>"Mr. Weiss (and others that hold similar beliefs): Are you anti-Teacher, anti-High Taxes, anti-Union, or all of the above?<<<
None of the above. As I said you cannot generalize. My topics are limited to Dsitrict 219. Throughout the country Teachers receive a wide range of salaries. Some are certainly very low. My beef is with particular districts only, 219 included.
>>If you are anti-Teacher, you seem to be so because they are highly paid in 219. Is that the only thing that makes you mad?<<<
Well, briefly, what makes me angry is when someone urinates on my shoes and tries to tell me it's raining. When money is wasted based upon false information such as unneeded physical plant expansion claiming overcrowding when there was none. Inflating student fees because they needed a tax increase. getting a tax increase and failing to roll back fees, saying "We all need to make sacrifices' to get a tax increase and when it happens the first order of business is raises all around, being the literal first page poster child for spending excess with the (former) highest paid superintendent, having fluff in the curriculum like fashion design and cosmetology when there is a purported fiscal crisis and lobbying for a referendum, using fuzzy logic for spending excess like "A lot of school districts are in fiscal trouble,… we need to be competitive." Teachers proselytizing to students to have the students support them without a wider grasp of the issues.

FWIW I may be a newcomer to these particular comments, but having been in the 219 district for over 45 years, my 4 children attending school there as well as my sister, my wife and I graduating from there, there are probably few who would consider that a "Newcomer".

Richard Schulte, I posted that I would lessen my posting efforts here, not end it. Perhaps you thought you could make up things about what I wrote and not get a response correcting your fiction.

I will give your $10,000.00 if you can prove that anything I posted appears to, as you wrote,

"...deny that President Lincoln was a Republican"

---not answering you assertion directly because of the uselessness to restate the obvious does not constitute
disagreeing with your statement.

"...the KKK was an organization started by Democrats to terrorize poor black folks after Reconstruction"

"...that Chicago Democrats had nothing to do with the terrible schools in Chicago"

It is time to put up or shut up. As to the first false allegation, don't put me in the same category of Sarah Palin, Chritine O'Donnel, or Michelle Bachman. I suppose you think that George Washington was not the first President of the United States. Actually, you would be correct in that assumption. A technical and good case can be made that a person named Richard Lee was the first president of the U.S government. He was the President of the First Continental Congress.

The KKK was founded in 1865 sson after the end of the Civil War, not in 1870 as you wrote. It only gets worse. Actually it was not started just by Democrats but also by southern Republicans (yes, they existed) and a whole bunch of other people.

---to be continued---

I think it is quite fitting to hopefully conclude my comments of schools and American education to attempt to explain why so many Americans think so poorly of teachers and our public schools.

I believe there are two explanations. One I am certain of and the second represents an educated guess based on one of my two titles of being a Professor of Behavioral Sciences.

The first explanation is that many Americans have bought in the false notion of the School Reform Movement that American schools are failing and that American school children score worse than other countries on standardized tests.

A brief explanation of this is that while schools have never been very good, youngsters today are more aware of the world, know more things, and are better at solving problems than any other generation in American history. Why, because of all the electronic advances, including the internet. The internet has deeply broadened their horizons and exposure to so many things not emphasized in traditional schooling. The playing of video games, in most cases, involves more opportunities to see relationships, make unobvious connections between disparate things (a crucial element in higher ordered thinking), and in problem solving than any traditional school curriculum ever dreamed of. These things are not demonstrated by standardized testing. ---to be continued---

Seymour I hate to jump in but, because under achieving schools were a national problem does not excuse the local municipality from doing a horrible job. What was the common thread between these failing schools? Democrats running almost every big city since the sixties. Also teachers unions are a common thread. I am not blaming either but i am not exonerating them. The naperville schools are good, why. And please don't retort money, we both know that is not the reason. Plenty of money has been thrown at city schools. I grew up in the city school system of Philadelphia, and though admittedly not the best student, the schools were good and produced good, capable citizens. I do not dislike teachers. I do not like nor do I trust teachers unions. I don't know why at this point in time teachers do. Im sure some teachers don't.

---Part 2 on Why People are Ragging on Schools and Teachers---

Contrary to the public's misperception, kids today read plenty on the internet, in game instructions, in e-mails, and in texting. Unfortunately they read fewer books, but so does the entire adult population. American school curriculum traditionally is 10 years behind the necessary knowledge curve and changes of a current generation. Because of the computer and internet, today's youth are more current with the knowledge and advances in knowledge than any previous generation. This knowledge is rarely tested on stardardized tests that are used to compare American students with others.

The second factor, my educated guess, is because most adults making these negative assessments of schools and teachers is that to some degree, most do not think fondly of their own experience and more easily remember their own poor teachers than their good ones. The irony is that parents entrust their most precious children's future to these schools and teachers. So many think they are receiving poor preparation. How many lose sleep over this, and more importantly, if they do, how come they tend not to take to the streets?

Second, every parent knows it is a tough job to parent. Schools and teachers, with whom many adults already are primed with negative thoughts from thier own experiences, become prime targets to scapegoat when parents are having problems with their own children rather than looking at themselves.

Seymour, the only way I know to respond to your challenge is with a few quotes from Marx:

"A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere."

"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five."

"Before I speak, I have something important to say."

"I didn't like the play, but then I saw it under adverse conditions - the curtain was up."

And the Groucho Marx quote most applicable to me:

"I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members."

Liberals take themselves so seriously, particularly when they get stomped in a debate. I'll leave you with a few quotes from A. Lincoln, since the 16th president has been inserted into the discussion:

"A friend is one who has the same enemies as you have."

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

This last quote is particularly to the point of our discussion. Democrats are working hard to destroy what America stands far-a shining city on a hill.

Smile, damn it, and don't take yourself so seriously. If you let liberals ramble on long enough, everybody will see what they are saying is foolish. Case in point, the 3 week teacher revolt that went on 3 weeks to long. If teachers were really professionals, they wouldn't be represented by a union and they would have rioted in Madison. And I'm just a dumb old country boy from coal country. . . Shame.

Thanks for the link, Awesome One. As soon as I have a chance, I will be glan to read it.

Seymour, have a great time in philly. Make sure you have a cheesesteak from Steves prince of steaks. There is one near Bucks County.

"As for America standing for a shining city on the hill, that may be a hope but has NEVER been a reality. . . America has a long storied but also SORDED history. . . While our standard of living is higher than any other country, studies demonstrate that the quality of life is greater in a number of other countries, particularly those in Scandinavia.."

I rest my case. The Declaration of Independence and the American Constitution are two of the most remarkable documents ever produced in the history of the world. The American Revolution spread freedom and democracy throughout the world. Millions of immigrants have come to America from distant shores for a better life, including from Scandinavian countries. Thousands of immigrants come to America illegally each year from Mexico and other Central American countries. (How many folks from Mexico immigrate to Scandanavia?)

Dr. Schwartz thinks that since America is not perfect, America can never be great. There is only one who is perfect, God. One of the problems in our public schools is that we have banished God from the classroom. The Constitution guarantees freedom to practice religion, not freedom from religion. The founders of this country were deeply religious men. The Supreme Court decision to ban prayer in schools was the beginning of the decline of this great nation.

I'm sorry that you feel so negatively toward this great country, Dr. Schwartz. I'm still proud to be an American, even if you're not.

"To have a shining city on the hill, liberals fight every day for: A more equitable society A more just society A more fair society Equal opportunity for all, not just the rich and privaleged and birth progeny Caring for your weak poor huddled masses. . . Freedom and charity for all Serious people seriously take serious matters seriously. For too many conservatives, a shining city on a hill represents: Almost total freedom from interference from anyone else at anybody's expense. . . .Screw the disadvantaged of society. God speaks only to me and loves only me and my kind."

Seymour, liberals hate conservatives (although they pretend to love "diversity"), conservatives find liberals extremely amusing-actually laughable. What you have written sounds good, but liberals don't really act upon it. Your position with respect to public schools which you have shared with us is case in point. What I have advocated here is a good education for every student, including the children of poor black folks. You side with those who stand in the way improving our schools-the teachers' unions. You defend the Democrats who have let the schools in our cities decay, not only in Chicago, but in every major city in the U.S. If you really believed what you said above, you would be standing up for the students against the teachers' unions. I stand with our children.

Conservative are not against the poor. I will remind you, the economy has bankrupted me-only Democrats got a "bail out".

A report from Wisconsin:

"Yes, unionistas are videotaping [license plate numbers]. This may be the first step in setting up counter-intelligence databases to be used against Americans citizens based on their political inclinations. How does this all work? First, a few feckless law enforcement folks will have to illegally access the Wisconsin DMV for the names and home addresses of these drivers [attending pro-Governor Walker rallies]. Then using a reverse address directory, the unionistas will get access to landline phone numbers, followed by a quick look at a public campaign databases, which will yield the amounts of their political contributions. With this much information, a good opposition security search could easily access property tax records, arrest records, credit reports, children's names and ages, employers' names, and in many cases, social security numbers."

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/03/it_gets_even_uglier_in_wiscons.html

These are the tactics being used by public school teachers to maintain their control over the public schools and the education of your children. Nice people, very nice people. . . .

"Raise our taxes! Raise our taxes!" You remember that chant from public employees in Illinois. Well that's what Governor Quinn and the Democrats did (after the November 2010 election, not before it) and here's the result. Say good-bye to the Illinois economy and say hello to the Detroit economy.

"SPRINGFIELD -- The chairman and CEO of Peoria-based Caterpillar Inc. is raising the specter of moving the heavy equipment maker out of Illinois.

In a letter sent March 21 to Gov. Pat Quinn, Caterpillar chief executive officer Doug Oberhelman said officials in at least four other states have approached the company about relocating since Illinois raised its income tax in January."

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/article_3c23590c-572a-11e0-afc0-001cc4c002e0.html

If you were bthe CEO of Caterpillar, wouldn't you leave the State of Illinois for greener pastures? I sure would-in fact, I'm planning on moving to Florida right now-Tallahassee looks like it might be a nice place to live or perhaps Pensacola. No state income tax in Florida and no snow either. Better beaches than Evanston too. It's 68 degrees in Pensacola at the moment.

Panama City. Real. Fun. Beach. Thank you Governor Quinn for destroying the State of Illinois. I think I prefer the old governor-yeah the guy with the funny-looking hair. At least he was an honest crook.

Thanks public school teachers. First you destroy the State of Michigan and then you spread the misery to Illinois. Shame.

The silence is deafening. It appears that our sage, Dr. Schwartz, has nothing to say about Caterpillar leaving the State of Illinois due to the tax increase.

The opposition told us that companies would head for the exits if Governor Quinn and the legislature raised taxes. They did it anyway and now Quinn's "chickens have come home to roost" (to borrow a quote from another sage, Reverend Jerimiah Wright). Who's going to be left to pay all of those 6 figure teachers salaries?

Maybe Governor Quinn will propose another increase in the income tax to cover all the revenue lost from Caterpillar leaving Illinois. Yeah, that's a good idea. "Raise our taxes! Raise our taxes!" Caterpillar leaving the state is just common sense. Who will be next big company to announce that they are abandoing the sinking ship, the USS Illinois?

"TALLAHASSEE -- The Florida House delivered a major blow to public employee unions Friday, approving a bill that would ban automatic dues deduction from a government paycheck and require members to sign off on the use of their dues for political purposes."

"During the last general election cycle, the statewide teachers' union gave more than $3.4 million in campaign contributions, mostly to Democrats. The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees doled out nearly $1.4 million, much of it directly to the state Democratic Party. And the AFL-CIO and other labor groups gave hundreds of thousands of dollars more."

Source: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/fl-bill-bans-automatic-union-dues-20110325,0,1209569.story

"With the second highest debt of any state, behind California, Illinois’ bonding obligations top $34 billion. . . "

"A Senate GOP analysis of state finances shows that without substantial reductions in state spending, even when taking into account the revenues from the recent 67 percent income tax increase, Illinois is on target to reach a whopping $22 billion deficit in five years."

Source: http://mail.aol.com/33456-111/aol-1/en-us/mail/DisplayMessage.aspx?ws_popup=true

We're broke folks. . . Perhaps it's time to get rid of those 6 figure salaried teachers and replace them with teachers that only make as much as police officers.

In Evanston, the top salary of a police officer was about $75 thousand annually as of September 2008. That's for 12 months of work. Since teachers only work 8 months a year, that would work out to a top salary of $50 thousand annually. Granted, some teachers will take a "haircut", but, if they don't like the pay, they can always find work as a CEO at a Fortune 500 company if they can find a gig like that. Or, they could find a summer job like the rest of us.

--Catepillar from Schwartz, Part 2--

Another reason I think they are bluffing is that given the poor condition of the economies of all of the fifty states except one, no governor would be able to offer common incentives such as subsidizing the move and rebuilding of all of Catepillars plants and equipment which I would guestimate would be in the BILLIONS, not MILLIONS of dollars, without being run out of the state. Maybe Catepillar intends to move their management to a warmer, sunny climate, like Boeing did (minus the warmer and sunny) to Chicago while leaving their workforce in Seattle, Washington?

Of course the crazy no task for whatever reason whackos would warn catastrophe if Illinois raised its income tax rates. What would you expect of Neanderthals who still maintain that the earth is flat and that the United States never landed on the moon?

I am angry with Governor Quinn and the Illinois Democrats for NOT raising the income taxes MORE than they did. The added revenue is still not enough to get the state out of the financial hole they find themselves in. Schwartz the Sage has a saying "that if you don't wanna pay, let them eat hay." Someone else said "there ain't no free lunch." Their grammar, not mine. If you don't want to lose your car in a giant pothole or have the paramedics arrive an hour after you called in an emergency, or the police to arrive 20 minutes after you dialed 911 as someone is trying to invade your home, you better pay the piper!

"Caterpillar Inc., suggesting that it could shift jobs out of Illinois, is prodding its home state to cut government spending and roll back tax increases.

Doug Oberhelman, chief executive officer of the giant Peoria, Ill.-based maker of construction and mining equipment, protested against the state’s tax and spending policies in a March 21 letter to Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn, a Democrat who took office in January 2009.

In the letter, first reported Friday by the Lee Enterprises newspaper chain and provided to The Wall Street Journal Saturday, Mr. Oberhelman said other states have stepped up their efforts to lure Caterpillar."

Source: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/03/26/caterpillar-america/

The fate of Illinois depends upon Governor Quinn and the Illinois legislature repealing the tax increases enacted in January and curbing spending instead. When Caterpillar decides to take leave of the state, it will be all over for Illinois. You don't raise taxes in the middle of a recession. That's just common sense.

Why don't Richard and Seymour have a "beer summit" and not tie up Patch with their musings!

---Part 2 in Response to Some of Richard's recent Points from The Sage---

In one of your posts, you demonstrate that you do not understand the religion clause of the first amendment.

"Congress shall me no longer with respect to the establishment of religion nor the free exercise thereof".
There are two parts to this: the establishment clause and the free exercise clause.

The establishment clause is the basis for separation of church and state. The government cannot promote either a particular religion or religious practice. No state religion or promotion. This is the basis of not allowing even a moment of silence in schools whose job is to teach including values. Since silence is a ritual used in prayer and prayer is a ritual in many religions, by allowing this in schools they are promoting religious practice byhaving a special time madatory for every student to practice a religious ritual. Actually there is nothing to stop any student from praying in school. It is not against the law. A teacher can be lecturing and a student can be praying silently. But the school cannot set aside a time for students to pray, etc. This is encouraging religious practice which is interpreted as promoting religious practice.

--to be continued---

---comments to Richard PART 3---

Actually, Richard, please sit down, but I believe you are not really a conservative. You just think you are. I think you are a closet liberal from your past. I do not think you are selfish or greedy. I believe from what you write that you really care about people and the less fortunate, and not just yourself and loved ones.

What I don't understand is why are you so against unions and teachers? What happened in your past? You are bright enough to understand that schools are facing a financial crisis because the whole economy is sour. It is not pensions or unions that caused the economic collapse. You have not said one word about the real cause of the financial plight of schools and states. They are corporate greed and wild unconscionable speculation by wall street and bankers who promoted decreasing government regulation.

You cry about teachers pensions but not one word about multi-million dollar bonuses of corporate managers let alone bosses as well as wall street brokers. Surely these bonuses result in inflated prices of goods and services which affect all of the public.

--to be continued----

Dear Old Man Schulte: Make it out of bed today? Took forever to pee? Miss your Geritol? Misplaced your artifical anti-arthritis coated hand to peck at the keys? Forget your name, Hank?

Oh, I understand these media conservatives quite well. I understand that Limberger is quite nice personally but is also a good actor who milks the money cow once he goes before a microphone. Coulter is just a........rhymes with rich. So is Malkin. Unfortunately that sounds sexist but its male equivalent is Michael Savage who is an ass hole. O'Reilley has a few screws loose, but is basically a rather decent if also egotistical man of below average intelligence. Heard of but never saw Mark Levine. Sean Hannity--total all American looking phony. Reminds me of the sneaky schoolyard bully who trips someone and blames it on another. Beck, ahhhhh, whiny literally Glen Beck. He is like Attila the Nun. All show no substance. He is such a crazy actor and he believes his made up persona so much that he doesn't even recognize himself, all the way to the bank. He reminds me of that sanctimonious lying with a straight face preacher in sheeps clothing ,Mike Huckalier.

Yeah, I know these so-called conservative personalities quite well. They all belong to a three ring circus in which the acts are growing stale by the minute. By the way, some of my best friends are real conservatives! #$@^%$%^$#$%#$&^

Richard , weather or not you like those commentators, they are just commentators. It is their carreer, and they do it for money as does Matthews, gregory, Maddow ETAL. I don't know for sure who is sincere and who is phony. Richard instead of concentrating on them , please write one of your impressive three column dissertations on one topic. The topic is President Obama bought his property with the help of a convicted felon Tony Rezko. Rezko owned the adjoining property and sold it to Obama way under market value. Thank you . I look forward to reading your response.

"Government is not the solution to our problems. Government is the problem."

There are two problems with attempts at central planning from Washington. One is the "law of unintended consequences". The other is a law of physics-"for every action, there is an equal an opposite reaction".

The results of the Community Reinvestment Act in the Carter Administration is an example of both of these laws. It took 30 years for the CRA to sink the economy, but the CRA most certainly sank the economy as "unintended consequences" slowly rippled through the economy.

There was a reason for "red-lining". It was because banks knew that folks who lived in areas that were "red-lined" had a high probability of not being capable of repaying a loan. Those folks happened to be black folks, but, the color of ones skin had nothing to do with it. "Red-lining" was just sound business practice, not intentional discrimination by banks. And now we are living with the "unintended consequences". The Carter Administration-a gift that just keeps on giving us misery.

Socialism doesn't work-it can't work. True, the enactment of the CRA was full of good intentions, but all it did was spread the misery. That's what socialism does-makes everybody equally miserable. In general, teachers, including you, believe in socialism and socialism must be opposed at every turn if the United States is not to become like Cuba and North Korea. Even the Red Chinese have figured out that socialism doesn't work.

"Illinois recently almost doubled its business tax and income taxes for employees. Oberhelman has a fiduciary responsibility to the company's shareholders to examine options that would increase the profitability of Caterpillar. He could be fired (or charged with a crime) if he failed to do so. The huge tax increase makes staying in Illinois an unprofitable option."

That's correct, the CEO of Caterpillar could be charged with a crime if he doesn't move the corporation out of Illinois. The CEO of Caterpillar is not some greedy s.o.b., but is charged with looking out for the interest of the shareholders of Caterpillar. The law requires that he be a greedy s.o.b.

"CEO Doug Oberhelman sent a letter to Illinois Governor Pat Quinn, saying that "the pressure was on" from other states who are trying to woo the tractor maker and their 23,000 jobs away from their home in East Peoria."

Could be 23,000 jobs lost to Governor Quinn and Democrats' tax increase in Illinois. Of course, for every 1 job lost due to Caterpillar leaving Illinois, another 2 or 3 jobs will be lost at other Illinois companies who do work for Caterpillar. So if Caterpillar leaves Illinois, there goes 100,000 jobs to a neighboring State.

Please tell me, Dr. Schwartz, why do Governor Quinn and Democrats hate the little guys who work at Caterpillar? Answer-because they get campaign cash from teachers' unions and the SEIU. Who's for the little guy-Schwartz or Schulte? The answer to that question is obvious.

Richard, communism and socialism are two different things. Did you ever live under communism? Maybe not! I did! I can tell you first hand the difference between the two...

Richard, the Sage has no backround in economics you write? All I did was to teach among other courses, college economics for years.

Ms. Andronache is absolutely correct. Socialism and Communism are not the same. Don,t go by the ignorant new right mixing them up as if there is no difference. I am not going to explain the differences here other than to say that communism is an economic system and socialism is a political-economic system. Now I am going to give you some FACTS that is going to confuse you.

Some communist systems have the word Democracy in the name of their states including China and the former East Germany.
Almost all European democracies are socialism. They are called Social Democracies.
The end result of Marxist states in democracy.
All communist societies have also been socialistic on a continuum leading to democracy which they never have achieved.
Most socialist states have been and are democratic as well as being under fascism and dictatorships.
The United States has always been a mixture of capitalistic and socialist since the early 20th century.
Never in the history of the world has there been a pure democratic society.
Athenian democracy was not democratic--it was an autocratic oligarchy.

End of lesson for today.

Hank Schulte, 'Hear' 'Hear", Rush has a cochlear inplant. He is not deaf. He is profoundly hard of hearing. Lucky guy. Doesn't have to listen to his own drivel. I never said Limberger is stupid. He is just a fool if he truly believes his drivel.

Twenty million listeners is only a small percentage of the ggreater many in our population who are profoundly ignorant about the world they live in. There are many intellectual conservatives who are very knowledgeable. We just disagree on conclusions and policy. Among these are George Will, William Crystal, the late William J. Buckley, David Frum. etc. Then there is the late great conservative philosopher Edmund Burke, the late great American historian Clinton Rossiter, and the first Secretary of the Treasury, the Federalist Alexander Hamilton.

Wow! Well, since this debate rages on and on and on and on and . . . . . I wondered what Mr. Schwartz's opinion would be on the fact that George Soros wants to make happen a global economic system and is putting his plan into motion with this meeting: http://www.mrc.org/bmi/commentary/2011/Unreported_Soros_Event_Aims_to_Remake_Entire_Global_Economy.html

George Soros is an Hungarian born refugee from Nazi Europe who is one of the world's richest people. Unbelievably successful as a financier and speculator, he has become much more. He is definitely liberal and progressive. He is an economist, philosopher, philanthropist, and activist for political causes.

His idea for restructuring the global economic system is based on the need for restructuring the Bretton Woods Agreement in which, following the end of WWII, the major victors set up the world economic structure following its devastation from the war. This included the eventual establishment of the United Nations economic bodies and world economic rules dominated by the major powers.

Since the world is so different today, he feels there should be a new economic system and rules that recognize no first (U.S.) among equals dominating the system. He calls for a reordering or economic power among particularly China, the up and coming world economic power, India, and other economically developed countries.

He believes there should be more stringet economic regulation, including no enterprise too become too big to fail. He also believes in a basic restructuring of the currancy systems to better reflect modern economic intercourse.

An important contribution of Soros to the world order was that he was instrumental to the collapse of Eastern European communism through his financial manipulation.

--to be continued--

--George Soros Part Two--

During the near economic collapse of the economies of the U.S. and Europe, the difficulty of European countries to agree as to how to come to the rescue of Greece supports Soros' claim for reform.

Because he is such an important supporter of progressive causes and politics world-wide and in the United States, including emerging societies to become more open and tolerant of divergent view and ideas, Soros has been a favorite target for right wing and conservative Republicans. They try to denigrate him just as they have attempted to destroy unions, one of the 10 largest political contributors, and to Democrat candidates. Even though 7 out of 10 of the largest contributors to political causes are Republicans, led by the Koch (some say cock) Brothers and Karl Rove, they want to DESTROY all large liberal contributors. I have no doubt this is what Wisconsin and Gov. Walker has been all about.

Richard, A.K.A Hank. Woe to the world. If between them Palin and Bachman raised 30 children, that must be 30 more idiots added to the world's gene pool, don't you think? In fairness to them both, Bachman has the most beautiful eyes, Scandinavian of course. But her gaze is far out--scary. Palin has nice.......oh whatever. She is one of those rare women who look even better with glasses, about the only thing classy about her.

Supply side economics has been totally discredited with the economic deregulation fostering such greed during the boom of the nineties that resulted in the economic collapse of 2009. Alan Greenspan is persona non grata among professional economists. Arthur Leffler has been banished to a cave in Tibet. Milton Friedman is too embarrased to attend economic meetings. If he did, he would scare the economists into their graves too! (sorry, that was bad).

An interesting post. . . .there are two cases in South America worth studying. You may recall, Salvador Allende seized power in Chile and imposed socialism on the country. Allende was assassinated by General Pinochet who reversed course and brought in Milton Friedman. Following the recommendations of Friedman, Chile is now one of the most successful economies in South America. Socialism destroyed Chile's economy and free market capitalism brought it back from the destruction brought on by Allende's socialism.

What is interesting about Chile, is that Chile has a privately-funded retirement system-no social security system like in the United States. Predictably, the retirement benefits for Chileans are several times higher than the benefits paid by the US social security system. The return on social security taxes paid in the US is around 2 percent and if you die before collecting, your benefits are not passed onto your heirs. In Chile, the money accumulated in your retirement can be passed onto your heirs in the event of premature death.

President Bush proposed converting to a Chilean system for retirement in 2005, but was immedicately attacked by Democrats and the proposal was abandoned.

The 2nd case is, of course, Venezula. Venezula's economy was doing well, until Hugo Chavez came to power and imposed socialism on the country. Predictably, socialism destroyed the economy in Venezula.

Socialism destroys everything it touches.

"When schoolchildren start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children."

Albert Shanker (1928-1997) -- former president of American Federation of Teachers

Make the cuts that are needed and stop enslaving our childre and grandchildren with unsastianable debt.

Dr. Schwartz: "#$@^%$%^$#$%#$&^"

The above appears to be the best justification that the teachers can come up with for their salaries. In the month since this discussion first began on EvanstonPatch, no one has been able to provide any facts, or make cogent arguments, to defend why teacher salaries should be higher than that of a police officer. Given the number of teachers in Illinois, you would think that someone could make an adequate defense if one existed.

Teachers claim to be "white-collar" professionals and should be paid as such. "White-collar" professionals typically work between 50 to 60 hours a week. "White collar" professionals work 12 months a year. "White collar" professionals are not unionized. "White collar" professionals don't act like children, as the teachers did for 3 weeks in Madison, Wisconsin. "White collar" professionals do not engage in "union-thug" behavior. Given this, it seems logical to conclude that teachers are not "white collar" professionals.

In November 2010, Wisconsin voters replaced the Dem governor and Dem majority assembly and senate with Republicans. That is the way our political system works.

Governor Quinn and the Dem legislature in Illinois supported increasing both the personal and corporate income tax rates. This measure was approved and now businesses are fleeing the state. That is also the way our political system works. It is called "voting with your feet".

It appears that teachers have lost the debate.

"More and more communities and state governors have begun to question the relationship between teachers, their elected boards, their superintendents and the unions which represent them, in the wake of Wisconsin's union rampages."

"Gouging Taxpayers in the Chicago Suburbs"

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/03/gouging_taxpayers_in_the_chica.html

Richard, you will never learn. I hope a lot of people reading this will learn from sound statements rather than from uninformed views that can't be changed with reason or evidence. Using the American Thinker for evidence which is not only a conservative rag, it is very similar to Tea Partiers believing in a flat earth.

"The more and more communities and state governors have begun to question the relationship between theachers...." quote from The American Thinkless" is disengenuously true. There are tea party governors elected in 2010 in Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, Tennessee who are attempting to decimate the public schools in their state. Every one of them, according to multiple polls in their states would not get reelected by their state citizens if the election were held today. Their polling numbers are plummeting. They have committed political suicide.

Second, everything you have written about teachers and unions demonstrates you don't understand either. Teaching is one of the few professions, where when teachers are in a classroom, they have to pay close attention every second of a class period. For every hour they are in a classroom, it is the equivalent of two hours of work. They have no chance to daydream, go to the water cooler for a coffee break, or chatter with a colleague as in most other jobs and professions. In addition, like a good lawyer, public school teachers take home work which is not on the clock.

--to be continued--

---to Richard Part 2--

In addition, like most professionals, they have to keep up with their profession by taking continuing educational classes. So what if they work 9, not 8 months a year. That is tradition to let the kids work on the farms from another era, not something thought up by unions. Many teachers either teach summer school or work at more menial jobs in the summer months to make a go of it.

What about baseball players who make millions of dollars working 5 months a year? Other professional athletes also work similar numbers of months for greater compensation; high level corporate managers who take month long vacations? You can't blame teachers for a 9 month work week because it is cultural tradition. They are still vastly underpaid .

Heck, I as a college professor taught two, three, or four classes a semester. That would amount to only 6-12 hours a week, 9 months per year. Maybe 4 office hours a week. But, I was obligated to be on and attend committee meetings, department meetings, read and grade papers at home, preparation for lectures, attending professional meetings and conferences, research,writing, and publishing, keeping up with my field and profession by paying out of my own pocket many dollars for professional memberships and books and professional journals to stay current in my field. But, I only spent 6-12 hours in class per week. When I was the chair of a very large department, --to be continued--continued--

After I answered Richard's false claim that Governors cutting educational funding and teachers rights was spreading, I corrected him that it was limited to a few Tea Party types who were committing political suicide with their state's voters.

Well, tonight it was announced that Governor Mitch Daniels of Indiana, who looks to be a candidate for the Republican nomination for president, has announced that his plan to decimate education in Indiana and strip unions of most their rights, like Wisconsin, is DROPPING HIS PLAN.

While given little national attention, 39 (I think) Democratic Assemblymen left the state for Illinois for the last 5 or 6 weeks to prevent a vote on the measure . The governor caved in to their demands and the Democrat representatives returned to Indiana. Apparently Daniels looked at the dismal polls and decided it would hurt his chances to receive the Republican presidential nomination let alone get reelected as Indiana governor.

This is another example of the beginning of of Democratic resurgance all over the country which will hopefully return Democrats to power in both houses of Congress and win the presidency in 2012. Radical Republican tea party types and the anarchical tea partyers have not only seemed to revitalize unions in America and energize Democrats and brought home Reagan Democrats, but they have also threatened the viability of the Republican party. The party of 'just say no' is now the party of OH NO !!!!

Dr. Schwartz, four very lengthy posts. . . . You don't get points in a debate for the length of your posts, however, but by what you say.

The Illinois Education Association (IEA)/SIEU were principal contributors to Governor Quinn's reelection campaign. The IEA/SEIU wanted the governor to raise taxes in order to protect their jobs and the Governor and the Dem legislature did so, but only after the 2010 election. The result is that people and businesses are leaving Illinois. Connect the dots. . . .

Is Governor Quinn "in the pocket" of the the IEA/SIEU and against the taxpayers of Illinois? Once again, the answer is obvious and the results of this policy are obvious too-Caterpillar.

In the 2010 election, Governor Quinn's opponent won 98 of 102 counties in Illinois, but Quinn won the election. (Vote early and often apparently carried the day in Crook County. Note that the returns from some precints in Crook County were delayed until the downstate votes were tallied.) We will just have to wait on future elections to see if the public sides with IEA/SEIU/Governor Quinn against the taxpayers or whether fiscal responsibility is victorious.

Not much else to say really.

Ten worst states for retirement:
50. Illinois
49. California
48. New York
47. Rhode Island
46. New Jersey
45. Ohio
44. Wisconsin
43. Massachusetts
42. Connecticut
41. Nevada

http://www.walletpop.com/2011/03/28/best-and-worst-states-for-retirement/?icid=maing-grid7|aim|dl4|sec1_lnk3|52693

The three worst states on this list are all bankrupt.

Since the comments posted by Dr. Schwartz contain little factual information, the following regarding the Illinois budget should be of interest:

"During America’s Great Recession, Illinois’ budget situation has gone from shaky to unsustainable. But the state’s fiscal woes began long before this downturn.

Illinois’ budget gap for fiscal 2010 was one of the three biggest in the country: $13.2 billion. But Illinois has run deficits every year since the last recession in 2001.

“The difficulty is there is not a tax increase big enough to allow the state to keep spending at the level it has,” said Laurence Msall, president of the Chicago-based Civic Federation, a business oriented group that studies state and local government. Quinn put forward ideas this year to tamp down spending but got a chilly reception from legislators, Msall said."

Source: http://www.pewcenteronthestates.org/uploadedFiles/wwwpewcenteronthestatesorg/Illinois.pdf?n=9455

Regardless of your opinion regarding teachers' salaries, the fact is that Illinois is bankrupt. When you're bankrupt, every expenditure has to be on the table, including teachers' salaries. One question is: who is responsible for bankrupting the State? Who holds political power in the legislature? It's time for real "Hope and Change" in Illinois.

Illinois has the reputation of being one of the most corrupt states in the nation. The people of this state deserve better.

"Throw the bums out."

How much did the 3 week teacher protest cost the State of Wisconsin? Here are some of the estimated costs:

"It cost at least $2.23 million to bring Wisconsin State Patrol officers to the state Capitol to provide security during weeks of protest, bringing the total security bill to nearly $5.5 million."

"When combined with an estimated $7.5 million to repair damage done to the marble by the union mob as they attached banners, signs and posters to the historic capitol building, the figure reaches an astounding $13 million."

Source: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/03/union_mob_actions_costs_wiscon.html

The First Amendment does give citizens the right to express their opinions on issues, but the Constitution does not say that citizens have the right to stick taxpayers with the bill while exercising that right.

After being lectured about civil discourse in the wake of shooting of a congresswoman in January, we were treated to 3 weeks of unruly behavior by the people who teach our children and complain about unruly students in classrooms. The teachers in Madison set a fine example for their students. You can't help but wonder if teachers would complain if students in their classrooms acted like their teachers acted in Madison.

The total cost of this post and my other posts to taxpayers: $0

As a retired special education teacher having worked in residential (Maryville Academy), public and parochial schools for almost 40 years and having come up thru the life stream from the basement of being a gangster and then an outreach worker for the Boys Clubs and YMCA, then came to education and an honest life, I think teachers are spoiled and complacent just like the entire affluent American culture and unions (I was also once and auto worker in the 70s) are and have strangled, not enhanced the freedom and liberty of workers across the board. Kids are great for their energy but since they have NO skin in the game are acculturated to be all to willing to perceive themselves has having the dis-ease of helpless pwaoerless victims of some hard working Tax Paying RICH person( Me ), by the way may last year of being a social worker in a public day school I pulled down 6 figures for 180 days !!! of work ???(I saw what I did as an opportunity to a positive change agent not and employee) and got even more money for doing my last summer school. We are broke because of unions,banks, elected officials and our collective greed,along with a public, teachers and parents who have not learned to live abundantly and appreciatively within their means AND say NO to a free lunch that is .............NOT FREE.

I will express an opinion here, without factual back-up at the moment, other than, of course, the results of the November 2010 election (which was a landslide for the opposition party, with the exception of in the states which have the biggest financial problems).

It is my opinion that the teachers' union and the SEIU have mis-underestimated the mood of the American people-those in the private sector. The teachers' union and SEIU members, and folks like Dr. Schwartz, don't "get it" because they have been "bailed out" of the recession for the most part-at least up till now.

The "stimulus plan" passed in February 2009 had nothing to do with stimulating the economy. It was a "slush fund" handed-out to teachers' unions and SEIU members to keep them employed. There were no major infrastructure improvements as promised, just a lot of road signs telling us how great the administration was for making "curb and gutter" improvements. The "stimulus" slush fund is all gone now and the teachers and SEIU members are going to have to join the recession-couple of years late, but, hey, welcome to the recession-better late then never.

Those "extreme" tea-party members only want fiscal sanity to return to our government. Since when did fiscal responsibility become an "extreme" position?

Dr. Schwartz thinks that cuts in spending and fiscal responsibility are an "extreme" position. I'm too much of a gentleman to say what we really think of Dr. Schwartz's commentary.

"COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The Republican-led Ohio House voted Wednesday to severely limit the collective bargaining rights of 350,000 public workers across the state, sending a bill that's sparked pro-labor protests for weeks back to the state Senate.

The full House approved the measure on a 53-44 vote. A vote in the GOP-controlled Senate, which narrowly approved an earlier version of the legislation, could soon follow."

"The measure affects safety workers, teachers, nurses and a host of other government personnel."

Source: http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/30/ohio-house-oks-collective-bargaining-limits/

The Wisconsin update:

"The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports:

"Members of Wisconsin State Employees Union, AFSCME Council 24, have begun circulating letters to businesses in southeast Wisconsin, asking then to support workers’ rights by putting up a sign in their windows.

If businesses fail to comply, the letter says, “Failure to do so will leave us no choice but (to) do a public boycott of your business. And sorry, neutral means ‘no’ to those who work for the largest employer in the area and are union members."

"Apparently the WSEU feels that those who work and pay the taxes which in turn pay the public sector union members have no right to support any position which is not approved by the union."

Source:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/03/put_up_our_sign_or_else_wiscon.html

Are taxpayers permitted to boycott government and government workers? Who represents taxpayers in Wisconsin? This is what America has come to in the 21st century.

Richard, have you noticed that your last 9 posts have been unanswered except by one whose post was totally off the wall and bizarre to say the least. You are hanging yourself and looking more and more foolish when each post for several days are yours and your statements are getting more and more lie a wingnut obsessed with teachers and unions and public employees.

I have grown weary and tired of this, so this may be one of my last posts on this thread.
I can't end without commenting on your last very bizarre statement to say the least.

You are decrying public employees boycotting businesses and contend it could lead them to ignore government inspections and investigations. You sound like a ravingly mad tea party nutjob. Boycotting private places of business is totally legal and within a great storied tradition of America. Leading up to the American Revolution, the colonials boycotted tea, sugar, etc.
The great Civil Rights movement of the fifties and sixties included boycotts of private businesses.

Boycotting private business = defying government orders-----completely insane. Enough. Finished. I advise you not to continue to talk (or shall I say write to yourself--there are doctors for this sort of thing) I wish you the best, now find something more productive to do. Seymour

Everyone is just tired of listening to you two. Nothing against what Richard is saying. We just are tired of it. I agree with Richard anyway.

Matt R, my sincerest apologies if I have bored you or other readers. I'm bored by it myself (quite some time ago), but somebody has to speak up. . .What's going on in Wisconsin and Ohio is too important to let die. The unions have a big "war chest" (made up of our tax dollars) and I'm not going to let them have the field all to themselves.

Posting on Patch costs the tax-payers nothing. Not posting on Patch will cost the taxpayers dearly.

Understanding the problem:

"If you want to understand better why so many states—from New York to Wisconsin to California—are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, consider this depressing statistic: Today in America there are nearly twice as many people working for the government (22.5 million) than in all of manufacturing (11.5 million). This is an almost exact reversal of the situation in 1960, when there were 15 million workers in manufacturing and 8.7 million collecting a paycheck from the government."

"Nearly half of the $2.2 trillion cost of state and local governments is the $1 trillion-a-year tab for pay and benefits of state and local employees. Is it any wonder that so many states and cities cannot pay their bills?"

"But education is an industry where we measure performance backwards: We gauge school performance not by outputs, but by inputs. If quality falls, we say we didn't pay teachers enough or we need smaller class sizes or newer schools. If education had undergone the same productivity revolution that manufacturing has, we would have half as many educators, smaller school budgets, and higher graduation rates and test scores."

Source: Wall Street Journal, April 1, 2011
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704050204576219073867182108.html

From studentsfirst.org:

"With state governments facing huge budget deficits, one out of every five teachers could lose their job in some cities. Not only will this leave many unhappy kids, but also because of the outdated policy – last in, first out – many great teachers will be dismissed from the classroom."

"Across America, teachers will be fired from their job based only on how long they have been working – regardless of their performance or their students' achievement. Imagine trying to explain that to a child."

"In Florida, we have been campaigning to save great teachers and we won! Through the efforts of thousands of StudentsFirst members in Florida, we helped pass the Students Success Act, which will require teacher layoffs to be based on performance."

"Let's build on the momentum from our success in Florida. Watch our video and then share it with all your friends:

http://studentsfirst.org/watch-saveteachers "

With the recent federal court decision voiding the McCormick Place union workplace policy reforms, we have seen that unions representing non-public employees are as uninterested in the public good as public employee unions such as ones in WI who are trying to set aside modest and reasonable reforms. Just as conventions were returning to Chicago because the reforms made us competitive with other big convention cities in terms of labor costs to exhibitors, the unions sued to reinstate older non-competitive rules. Hence, many conventions won't come to Chicago putting those union workers who work at McCormick Place out of work, but also adversely effecting those who depend on convention business such as hotels, restaurants, cab drivers. Congratulations to the unions for cutting off your nose (and other peoples) to spite your face! Maybe you can put the court decision on the kitchen table rather than food.

From the Washington Examiner:

"Investigators for the House Energy and Commerce Committee have discovered that a little-known provision in the national health care law has allowed the federal government to pay nearly $2 billion to unions, state public employee systems, and big corporations to subsidize health coverage costs for early retirees. At the current rate of payment, the $5 billion appropriated for the program could be exhausted well before it is set to expire."

"The idea was to subsidize unions, states, and companies that had made commitments to provide health insurance for workers who retired early -- between the ages of 55 and 64, before they were eligible for Medicare. According to a new report prepared by the Department of Health and Human Services, "People in the early retiree age group...often face difficulties obtaining insurance in the individual market because of age or chronic conditions that make coverage unaffordable or inaccessible." As a result, fewer and fewer organizations have been offering coverage to early retirees; the Early Retiree Reinsurance Program was designed to subsidize such coverage until the creation of Obamacare's health-care exchanges."

Source: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/04/hidden_bailout_of_unions_and_b.html

People who retire early have it so difficult that we need to subsidize their early retirement. Making tax-payers feel like idiots. . .

"U.S. Ninth Worst for High School Dropouts

The United States now ranks near the bottom of the list of advanced economies for its high school dropout rate — 23.3 percent of American students do not receive a high school diploma.

Of the roughly 4 million students who enter high school each year, about 1 million will drop out before graduation. That’s 7,000 every school day.

The problem is even greater in large cities. Nearly half of all students in the nation’s 50 largest school districts drop out before graduation, CBS News reported.

In fact, just 25 of America’s 11,000 school districts with high schools accounted for one out of every five dropouts in one recent year, according to the Washington Post.

The U.S. rate compares poorly to the dropout rate in most of the countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the group of 34 advanced nations with economies most comparable to the U.S.

For example, in the U.K. the rate is 8.9 percent; in South Korea, 7 percent; in Japan, 5.3 percent; Ireland, 4 percent; Germany, 2.8 percent, according to OECD figures reported by the Wall Street Journal. "

Source: http://mail.aol.com/33490-111/aol-1/en-us/mail/DisplayMessage.aspx?ws_popup=true

Good job public school teachers!!!! I was wrong! With statistics like this, there is no doubt that those 6 figure salaries are well deserved. I know, it's somebody elses fault-it's always somebody elses fault.

An update on the weekend in Wisconsin:

"The day’s talking point for the well-organized protesters was the “selfish greed” of the Republicans and by extension ourselves. Half of the “unionistas” I encountered asked me why we were so selfish that we wanted to take money away from them, but none among them could explain why we were selfish for volunteering to help our fellow citizens and future generations to avoid fiscal ruin while they were protesting for their own self- interest. Failing to win the battle of logic the public school teachers in the motley crew of protesters fell back on the “we are so overworked and underpaid” rhetoric that is a staple of their profession and always good for a hearty laugh."

Public school teachers, "so overworked and underpaid"-6 figure salaries for 8 months of work and retirement benefits that even make Prince Charles envious. "Overworked and underpaid"-now there's a winning slogan. How stupid do public school teachers really think we are?

Wisconsin Supreme Court race:

"They don't get much bigger. On April 5 - this Tuesday - Wisconsinites will go to the polls to determine the balance of the State Supreme Court and, ultimately, the fate of the Wisconsin taxpayer. Currently, the court breaks 4-3, conservative/liberal, but with the election of Joanne Kloppenburg, the challenger to incumbent Dave Prosser, this will change."

"And it isn't because they "care about children." It's because they hate "choice." As the Wall Street Journal observes:

In 2001, Utah made the collection of union payments to political funds optional, and nearly 95% of public school teachers opted not to pay. In 2005, Indiana GOP Governor Mitch Daniels limited collective-bargaining rights for public employees, and today only 5% of state employees pay union dues."

"Ouch. When government workers begin to see fatter checks, it's game over. "

Source: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/04/prosser_vs_kloppenburg_wiscons.html

Well, well, well, even Democrats get it (sort of):

"Mayor-elect Rahm Emanuel is laying down the law to two unions whose cooperation he needs to turn Chicago around: teachers he wants to work a longer school day and laborers he wants to simply show up at work in greater numbers."

"During the campaign, Emanuel declared his support for curtailing teachers’ right to strike. He also made it clear that, if teachers won’t agree to work longer hours for extra pay, he’ll ask the Illinois General Assembly to mandate it."

Sounds like Mayor Daley (D) and Mayor-Elect Emanuel (D) are on the same page as Governor Walker (R). That's D/D agreeing with R.

http://www.suntimes.com/business/4663932-418/emanuel-warns-unions-longer-days-for-teachers-and-less-off-days-for-laborers.html

Those poor "overworked and underpaid" teachers. Maybe we can set up a "teacher relief fund" for them , or send in the National Guard to help them teach their classes. Shame.

Wisconsin update:

"Last week, Dane County Circuit Court Judge Maryann Sumi heard arguments over several days, concluding on Friday, concerning possible violations of the Open Meetings Law by Republican lawmakers who voted on a budgetary repair bill limiting collective bargaining for public education employees."

Marquette University law professor Rick Esenberg writes,

"In Goodland v. Zimmerman, 243 Wis. 459, 10 N.W.2d 180 (1943), the Supreme Court held that judges may not enjoin the publication of a law on the basis that it is or might be unconstitutional. A bill, in the Court's view, is not enacted until it is published such that publication is part of the legislative process with which courts may not interfere. Unless the Court wants to abandon that precedent, I think that it clearly requires that the restraining order be vacated and the case be remanded with instructions to dismiss."

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/04/judge_sumis_war_on_wisconsin_r.htm

"The real reason that unions have bussed thousands of people to Madison to protest is because the legislation makes the unions directly accountable to their members. The state will no longer withhold the $700 average annual union dues from employee paychecks. Unions must collect it directly from their members. Unions already have difficulty collecting dues in other states that passed similar legislation. The other issue that has inflamed the Wisconsin unions is that the union must be recertified each year by a majority of its membership. It is ironic that unions would protest legislation that would give their members a greater say in how their dues are used."

"In the 25 years that my wife was a teacher, she saw the union that she joined change from a professional association to help teachers provide the best education for children to just another industrial union that was concerned with political power and getting Democratic politicians elected. Helping teachers to provide the best education for the taxpayer's money was not a priority. Rather than rewarding good teachers through merit pay, the union promoted pay based on seniority. Benefits were encouraged over wages, because benefits were not taxable and pension obligations did not have to be accounted for in school district budgets. However, it is exactly these unsustainable healthcare and pension costs that are creating financial crisis in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and numerous other states."

Principal Kaine ($128K/yr) thinks the kids are legitimately doing "civil disobedience." What a stand-up guy. The beloved teachers for whom the teens are supporting are probably indigent as can be seen by their salaries found at http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php ....just punch in District 219.

Too bad Kaine and the school board can't doing something with the buget except RAISE OUR TAXES!

They are like the arrogant Marie Antoinette who exclaimed: "Let them eat cake!" I say to the principal and his Kaine-enites....LET THEM DRINK TEA!

A sampling of District 219 salaries. (It's worse than I imagined.)

Raffanti, Evelyn $116,251
Ramseyer, Elizabeth $114,595
Ramseyer, Stephen $107,759
Ranft, Susan $105,286
Rapp, Mary $114,298
Vivone, Chris $113,390
Wack, Paul $106,257
Waldron, Shaun $105,944
Walvoord, Eileen $128,140
Watanabe, Michael $126,472
Weatherington, Jody $57,351
Weatherington, Matthew $100,128
Weiberg, Bonnie $108,793
Whitefield, Denise $105,370
Whitefield, Elliot $102,217
Wick, Karin $117,891

Can anyone tell me if the Salaries listed on the website include a figure for the paid sick days that employees can accumulate? For instance. If the site says the employee is paid a salary of $100,000.00 does that mean they get that salary if no paid sick days are taken?

So, for a teacher making $100,000.00 a year with about 185 working days that comes out to $540.00 for each day worked. If they get 5 paid sick days on top of that to accumulate that's another $2700.00 Or is the salary $97,300.00 if they work every day with the sick pay deferred and still listed as salary?

Wow! Almost 300 comments. Just wanted to drop by and tell everyone that a special investigative story on District 219 will be running tomorrow morning (04/12). I hope you guys check it out, thanks!

More information on teachers' salaries-this time from Ohio. A chart compares private sector pay, state employee pay, teachers pay and Ohio Education Association pay from 2005 through 2010. Guess who is at the bottom of the totem pole and who is at the top?

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/04/11/union-pay-chart-of-the-day/